Is she worth keeping?

[Cedar Point Rabbitry]

Ok, so this is a purebred Holland Lop doe, born August 8 2014. I really like her body and head, but what gets me is her fairly small bone and extremely tight crown...thoughts?

 

[Susie570]

I understand that Holland Lops are supposed to be light in bone.
Not sure about the ears though. The ears seem to be shorter, in general, than Minis but they usually seem to 'lop' more than that, from what I've seen.

It might lead to babies with less of a 'lop'. I have been told that the lopping trait can be tricky.

 

[Dood]

What do you like about her head?

It looks disproportionately small compared to her body, at least to my eye and I suspect faults are being hidden by fur since that crown is terrible - I wouldn't keep.

 

[Cedar Point Rabbitry]

I like the roundness of it. But I see now...yeah, it is disproportionate with her body Thanks! I didn't see that before

 

[Susie570]

What do you like about her head?

It looks disproportionately small compared to her body, at least to my eye and I suspect faults are being hidden by fur since that crown is terrible - I wouldn't keep.

Dood, when you talk about 'a good crown', are you talking about how the ears fall? Or the roundness at the top of the head? Or?

 

[Dood]

All of the above

In this case the base of the ears has slipped so far back they are practically at the nape of her neck instead of the high point of the skull, just behind the eyes and likely why her ears stick up and I also suspect her crown is pinched and she lacks good with width between her ears

Judging crowns - http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-ju ... rs-crowns/

Holland SOP - http://mysecretrabbitry.weebly.com/holl ... dards.html

 

[dangerbunny]

I understand that Holland Lops are supposed to be light in bone.
Not sure about the ears though. The ears seem to be shorter, in general, than Minis but they usually seem to 'lop' more than that, from what I've seen.

It might lead to babies with less of a 'lop'. I have been told that the lopping trait can be tricky.

Nope, Hollands are supposed to have short and thick bone.

 

[Prisma]

Holland Lops are supposed to be short legged, tree trunk thick. They are supposed to be heavy and wide throughout with short bodies, no thinness or weakness in bone. I LOVE her legs and bone from the side look, BUT there is an obvious dip at the meet of the head and shoulders. This is a sign of an issue with the spinal column, so please check her! A dip at the shoulders like that usually means the spine is not straight, curves, or actually twists. I'd like to see a front view of her just to see her width and muzzle, but just because of that spine issue...I'd not use her, its an issue I have ever seen a breeder try to fix that I know or have seen post on HL show FB pages. The crown is a mute point compared to the spine issue.

Even if she didn't have the spine issue or crown, she still has others. She looks hollow in the middle and long, plus she is very undercut. She should go straight to the table and not have that space in between her hide quarters and the table. There's some thing else off with her hips, her feet go too far forward and point out. So she is either thin in hq or pinched, or possibly even both. Would need to flip her over and check. The spine issue may make it impossible for her to sit any better and be adding to the hq issue.

 

[Cedar Point Rabbitry]

Thanks Rebel.Rose I was hoping someone would post a comment like that!

 

[Susie570]

Holland Lops are supposed to be short legged, tree trunk thick. They are supposed to be heavy and wide throughout with short bodies, no thinness or weakness in bone. I LOVE her legs and bone from the side look, BUT there is an obvious dip at the meet of the head and shoulders. This is a sign of an issue with the spinal column, so please check her! A dip at the shoulders like that usually means the spine is not straight, curves, or actually twists. I'd like to see a front view of her just to see her width and muzzle, but just because of that spine issue...I'd not use her, its an issue I have ever seen a breeder try to fix that I know or have seen post on HL show FB pages. The crown is a mute point compared to the spine issue.

Even if she didn't have the spine issue or crown, she still has others. She looks hollow in the middle and long, plus she is very undercut. She should go straight to the table and not have that space in between her hide quarters and the table. There's some thing else off with her hips, her feet go too far forward and point out. So she is either thin in hq or pinched, or possibly even both. Would need to flip her over and check. The spine issue may make it impossible for her to sit any better and be adding to the hq issue.

Wow, I realize that was about Hollands, but it was very educational Thanks for such a detailed reply! Do you know Minis too?

 

[dangerbunny]

Good critique Rebel, I'd like to add that sometimes the dreaded shoulder dip is due to a low head set or long shoulder, to check for a hooked spine you can gently feel along the spine and you don't want it to bend or curve in sharply.

I wouldn't use her in a breeding program, you can forgive minor faults as no rabbit is perfect but she has quite a few flaws. Also you want to look at your herd as a whole and make sure your rabbits complement each other (ie don't breed thin bone to thin bone)

IMO your main buck should be as near to perfect as you can afford, as he will have the greatest contribution to your herd. Brood does I will forgive a little on but you are miles ahead if they are nice.

 

[Cedar Point Rabbitry]

Ok, thank you dangerbunny! I was wondering how you were supposed to check the spine <br /><br /> __________ Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:01 pm __________ <br /><br /> So I felt her spine, and it curves nicely, very smooth, no sharp, or even near sharp curves. So that's good?

 

[dangerbunny]

That is good but she still has a low head set, tiny head, tight crown, possible pinched hindquarters and looks like a table hugger ( hard to pose due to structural faults)

__________ Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:48 pm __________

Hope that doesn't come across as negative, just hard faults to breed out of a line.

 

[Prisma]

Ok, thank you dangerbunny! I was wondering how you were supposed to check the spine

__________ Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:01 pm __________

So I felt her spine, and it curves nicely, very smooth, no sharp, or even near sharp curves. So that's good?

You still do not want to use a doe with a dip in the spine, just because she doesn't have it herself does not mean she will not produce children with it worse or the same, and you don't want to keep the fault going. It is not an easy fix. As bad as it is or might seem, find a better doe for breeding, she's not breeding material imo.... <br /><br /> __________ Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:03 am __________ <br /><br />

Wow, I realize that was about Hollands, but it was very educational Thanks for such a detailed reply! Do you know Minis too?

I had ML in 2001 to 2006, there was little to no competition and impossible to get good stock to add to what I'd brought in from NJ and MD through another breeder that had moved here and sold out. I had chocolate chinchillas, gold tipped steels, sable, seals, and brokens of those. I had REW and broken orange as well pop up, but not as often as the others. They never sold well at that time and I didn't eat rabbits at that time either, so it came to a point it wasn't working out. I couldn't even sell one that was showable and came out of my BOB buck and BOS doe for $5.00 :/ so I sold them all and moved on.

 

[Susie570]

Wow, I realize that was about Hollands, but it was very educational Thanks for such a detailed reply! Do you know Minis too?

I had ML in 2001 to 2006, there was little to no competition and impossible to get good stock to add to what I'd brought in from NJ and MD through another breeder that had moved here and sold out. I had chocolate chinchillas, gold tipped steels, sable, seals, and brokens of those. I had REW and broken orange as well pop up, but not as often as the others. They never sold well at that time and I didn't eat rabbits at that time either, so it came to a point it wasn't working out. I couldn't even sell one that was showable and came out of my BOB buck and BOS doe for $5.00 :/ so I sold them all and moved on.

That's terrible!! I think a small ML operation would do well around here. The pet store can't keep them in stock and they ask a fairly hefty price. People keep asking me if I have any lop-eared babies, the one that did have one ear lop over went to her new home yesterday. I'm sure that my biggest market around here would simply be the pet market, as long as I would be able to keep things small and not overwhelm the market (and be willing to send unsold rabbits to freezer camp). I'm actually surprised that folks are willing to pay $30/each for these mixed bunnies, and that's with being really picky about the new owners, making them show me 'proof' that they have decent cages ready for them before they go to their new homes and turning away the 'Plz meet me to by Easter Bunny' responses, so that's encouraging What town are you in? I think you're the only other WV person I've seen on here.

 

[Prisma]

I'm a couple hours north actually, near Glenville. It is a small, might as well be a horse street town lol. I've been to and through Beckley area...many more people and not really surprising on the prices. Sales change all the time, so its not a surprise otherwise. At that time, I couldn't travel or meet any one so that didn't help sales plus being at that child just as adult stage didn't help I'm sure. At that time I only had 2 litters per year, one in spring and one in fall. I know its a bit of a trip, but there is a show in May at Mineral Wells should come to if can. There will be several other breeders from the area (none with ML though) that know each other. There's always some one there with a ML or 2, not sure what will be there and one can never tell. The biggest numbers are in NZ, Rex, MR, ND, and HLs but it is still a smaller show when compared to others (but still very busy).

 

[dangerbunny]

Heh. I used to live near Glenville, bit far from anything

 

[Susie570]

I'm a couple hours north actually, near Glenville. It is a small, might as well be a horse street town lol. I've been to and through Beckley area...many more people and not really surprising on the prices. Sales change all the time, so its not a surprise otherwise. At that time, I couldn't travel or meet any one so that didn't help sales plus being at that child just as adult stage didn't help I'm sure. At that time I only had 2 litters per year, one in spring and one in fall. I know its a bit of a trip, but there is a show in May at Mineral Wells should come to if can. There will be several other breeders from the area (none with ML though) that know each other. There's always some one there with a ML or 2, not sure what will be there and one can never tell. The biggest numbers are in NZ, Rex, MR, ND, and HLs but it is still a smaller show when compared to others (but still very busy).

Yeah, I've been to Glenville. A good friend of mine used to go to college there. Send me more info on the show in Mineral Wells if you get the chance. I would consider going to it, but my primary interest in MLs for sure.

I don't know if I would be willing to meet anyone for a rabbit sale. I mean, maybe if I were selling $100 rabbits, I would consider it. I had someone ask if I would meet them for one of the babies and I said "No, they are located at my shop in Beckley and if you're interested, you need to come meet them and put down a deposit". Probably lost a sale, but oh well. I'd enjoy the chance to meet you. <br /><br /> __________ Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:02 pm __________ <br /><br />

Heh. I used to live near Glenville, bit far from anything

WV to MI? That's a big change I've lived in IN, CA, OR, VA, KY and (primarily) WV.