Interesting litter article

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I belive the problem will be more likely caused by
using the Ceder bedding. I have been using
Pine shavings in my nestboxes since 1989
and have NEVER had a problem with Liver Disease
appear in any of the members of my Herd.
Sorry but I just cannot agree with the HRS findings.
They are so one sided anyway.
Hey, whatever you feel is best for your Rabbit
is what you should do! I just see3 no reason to change
what I have been doing for all these years.
I believe there needs to be more intensive research done
by others not affiliated with the House Rabbit Society.
Ottersatin. :eek:ldtimer:
 
I've always used pine shavings and they worked fantastic. I worked at a pet store and someone brought in a Chinchilla (the real kind, not a rabbit) that was kept on cedar shavings and he had a massive problem with his lungs and had breathing trouble. We dropped him off at a vet and he was going through liver failure.

Pine shavings are perfectly fine, but I had someone from the Colorado House Rabbit Society tell me not to use wood shavings at all. She also told me to spay and neuter all of my rabbits because I was "hoarding" them. Uh huh, okay lady. Let me get right on that.
 
Let's clarify WHY pine shavings are falling under the same label as Cedar. They both give off phenols...gasses that are toxic if breathed in over long periods of time. It's what makes cedar desirable for closets, etc....the gasses (that lovely scent) is what kills and repels fleas, moths, other insects. It is a simple scientifically researched FACT that breathing in the vapors will get to the bloodstream via the lungs..and that it causes liver failure.

Pine gives off less of the gasses, and so is safer..but not 100% safe. If used in an enclosed space, it will cause problems. (quite often seen as respiratory problems).

However...using it as bedding in an open environment allows the gasses to escape into the atmosphere with only minimal exposure to the animal. Animal is in and out of the nestbox/bedding area. Gets fresh air.

Personally...given the data from the research, I won't use pineshavings in an enclosed type nestbox, since the kits are snuggled down into the shavings, and have no choice but to breathe in the gasses. (you know that wonderful piney scent? that's the phenol and volatile oils ) But then, I have access to almost free hay.
 
Whatever anyone chooses to use for or do with/for their Rabbits
is a personal decision. I have been using Pineshavings and Grass-hay
for many many years and never had any problem.
So, I will continue to do as I always have until
some Rabbit genetics, breeding expert [and I mean an expert in the field]
comes up with some verifiable clinically tested proven after a many years survey
by reputable Breeders who can prove through their use that what was tested
should no longer be included for any use with regards to Rabbits.
I will wait for the research to be done by members in high standing of
The American Rabbit Breeders Association. Not that of the H R S.
Ottersatin. :eek:ldtimer:
 
my goodness. I never suggested that you should stop. Just that there is plenty of reason, from scientific researchers in many areas, to do so. Of course it's up to you. It's a simple fact that pine shavings gives off phenols.

Most breeders, including the top ones in the fields, aren't scientists. THEY depend on science to give them answers to what's good and what's not so good. By definition, scientific data is from trials that are run with a control group, with efficient equipment, and extremely accurate measurements.

There are many factors in different rabbitries and farm practices. Dairy farms, for example. For centuries farmers cut the grass hay and dried it to feed in the winter. Through research done by scientists, not farmers, it's been found to be more efficient, and more nutrient rich, to cut it green and stuff it into bags to store. It's called haylage and is very efficient, the cattle love it, and doesn't take up valuable dry storage. They still use dried hay for it's fiber content and the "gives 'em something to chew on". Round bales are still used out in the fields.

If you're looking for other people than whoever hrs is, look to the rat and small mammal people. I've been doing research into the whole pine shavings thing because of something someone said on a chicken forum. the rat raising experts have been saying "no" to pine shavings for some time. Does everyone follow their advice? of course not. Do they have data to back up the claims of liver damage and respiratory problems caused by pine shavings? yes.
 
I didn't see any data though.. they talked about 5 or 6 rabbits in that article and made reference to a couple others. The HRS depends on private donations to do what they do, including receiving money/goods from various companies, ie the makers of the "Carefresh" litter etc. who are then touted as being better. If the phenols caused actual liver damage then most of us living in/ near pine forests and all the creatures in them would be dead of liver failure! Elevated enzymes are a normal part of what the liver does, yes phenols raise the levels of enzymes and yes care must be taken WHEN SURGERY is required. That rabbit did not die from shavings; but liver failure from an INCORRECT dose of anesthesia. Perhaps then that the combination of having a spay surgery and living in shavings is the culprit, not just the shavings alone? Another factor would be the amount of ammonia present and how clean the cages are kept.Ammonia alone is deadly in higher concentration.Also i think the shavings we get are 'cured" or some such thing, they are not 'raw" and don't really smell like a pine forest to begin with. That's just my opinion though.. I am a highly suspicious person and take a lot of things with a grain of salt, depending on the source. :)
 
hey, I just put the link there for interest- not saying what a person should or should not do. I have used pine- I actually prefer the hardwood shavings though-- reason-I am allergic to the 'sap' in pine- one of the reasons why I hated soldering- the flux is made from pine sap. I had also always wondered why pine was okay, but cedar wasn't.
Also, most research is triggered by anecdectal evidence- in other words, enough peole say something is happening, money is found to actually do the required research to prove or disprove the theory.
 
To clarify, my post doesn't use the link as a starting place. And Lauren, it's not that the phenols are so potent that just walking by them or living near them causes damage. It's, as I stated in my post, in an enclosed area. Think about being in a closed room while you use turpentine or paint the whole room...those "fumes". Now imagine you have that 24 hours a day without leaving. THAT is the problem.

We forget that the rabbits live with their noses right next to the floor. Put your nose down next to the floor of a cage that hasn't been cleaned in a week. The ammonia smell is horrible...and you won't notice it when you stand up again...why? because the fumes/gasses dissipate in the air..they mix in with everything else.
 
Drawing on my organic chemistry class, phenols are a form of alcohol, and volitile, which means they evaporate easily. The tree holds on to them, a board looses some, and shavings lose them the most quickly, because they have the most surface area. I would imagine fresh pine shavings would be dramatically more full of them than older drier shavings...That's why you have to replace cedar sachets in the closet every so often. So if you were concerned, but had few alternatives, you could take the shavings out of the bag, fluff them up and leave them in an open container in a shed or garage, for instance, and minimize the risk a bit.

I also think many of the HR people bed the cages in the shavings, so the rabbit never touches wire. I think our more limited use and outdoor/draftier shed-type set-ups may not be as big of a problem, and that may be why our mileage has varied...and stuffing a nestbox with them is different than cage bedding that is peed on repeatedly by an adult rabbit. 2 week old babies don't pee much, and they are out of the box fairly quickly...

All I am getting at, is that different applications have different effects. I have used nail polish remover for instance, and I don't feel the need to put on gloves and a gas mask to do it, but I sure wouldn't want to bathe in the stuff, or live over an open vat of it!
 
I am with Ann and eco2pia on this. While red-cedar shavings are very beneficial as a disinfecting system, there is going to be a problem in keeping animals on the long term. Pine shavings are much less of a problem, but their use would be determined by how what the owner things is a reasonable risk. Wood chips, including cedar chips are used in large poultry raising operations (especially turkeys) They do keep continuous forced air flow in these barns. They also use all kinds of antibiotics and some use hormones in the feed. I don't think it is a question of regular pine shavings being toxic to the point of causing a fatality. It is a question of how much chemical in the rabbit is too much. Most of us lived in a house with lead paint as we were growing up. Obviously we are not dead. Whether it will lead to earlier death, or dementia, cancer, etc., than we would normally have had is hard to quantify.
 
UM, so in statistics, which I failed twice (but it was the applied stats for math majors, still flunked it...)
before you say A causes B, you have to look at the data and decide what you are analyzing and how you are doing it, THEN you do the math, and get an answer, and then you can check the answer. So there are chemical that *can* be dangerous, well people, do you know that artificial sweetener is a VERY toxic poison??
Or that TABLE SALT (NaCl) is MORE deadly than MALATHION? (BTW I did ace Chemistry (and yes for the sciences)

So, doing the short of this
Pine (and they failed to test for the level of VOC (I see this as HUGE red flag...) Nor do the specify the TYPE of pine...
has a chemical that is known to damage livers.
Failing to exclude the common causes of Liver damage, or to establish the baseline liver function of the rabbit.
Then draw that PINE SHAVINGS used in nesting boxes (and not the immune insult of pregnancy and nursing is the cause of??????


Sorry frosted, it sounds nice, but its by no means exhaustive nor exclusive, and they failed to connect random events or prove that A-B connection
It may be a basis of further study, but it's not a study, rather an author noting an occurrence, and offering a OPINION of what is happening.
that said, I used hay in the boxes as it's the habit I was in as shaving were/are messy in the house.
 
Jack-- I merely posted an anecdotal bit of information-- please-- I DIDN't fail my stats classes- mine were based on Biology research.One of my classes was on performimg research, and what made for a good research paper. So let's not get into the nitty-gritty, 'proper' research method on this, okay? I bow to your chemistry knowledge, I couldn't get real comfy with that until this last go round- but it was the BIOLOGY instructors that made the chemistry easier to understand. I'd be willing to take organic chemistry now-- I even have a book just to peruse.
 
i dont think this is something to get bent out of shape about. I enjoy learning and knowing w2hat thoughts are out there...there was a study recently that showed hospital births as being safer than home. It was a flawed study, and i mentioned that in the article (I haven't taken ANY colledge classes) but i didnt feel the need to get upset about it...

Lets simmer down a little, guys!
 

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