I'm panicking! (URGENT)

[HansenHomestead]

I am going to be posting about a few different things since everything sort of has to do with illness, and I do not want to make different threads for different kits.

First we will start off with this guy.

He is a week old, and is from B's litter. (we've had a few problems with B, and her litter.) My daughter, and I just got home from spending the weekend with my grandma, as soon as I got home I found 2 kits on the wire. Must have just happened, because they were still quite warm so I put them back in the nest, and 1 more of my 3 week old litter dead, and 1 from B's litter dead...

I checked the rest of the litters, and all seems well. I went to B's box, and all of the hay is gone, and the fur kicked down into the pee pans. I inspected each one, and came across 2 that looked this. The other one was not as swollen, but did have some poop stuck to where it could not pee. I took them both in, and soaked their butts in warm water, and got them cleaned up. For the one that was unable to urinate as soon as I got the poop washed off it peed a bucket load. You could almost see the relief on his little face.

Any suggestions on how what I should do about the diarrhea, or what could have caused it?

Second
(B's litter: 1 week old.)

This is also about B, and her litter, but a different matter. The morning after they were born I went out to the garage to check everyone, and before I even reached the hutch I heard a kit screaming! I ran to the hutch, and saw B over top of a kit that was on the wire. I moved B, and picked up the kit, he was so frozen, and stiff at first I thought he was dead. Upon inspection I saw that the kit had, had all his toes chewed off on one foot, and the tip of it's tail bit off. I called EnglishSpot, and she had said that it may have been a mouse. ( we don't have "rats" are here, lol.) So I took be, and her litter into the house hoping that would calm her down enough to feed them. Also we've only ever had 1 mouse in the garage before, and that was way before we had rabbits, but she continued to be poor at feeding. She had 11 babies, all alive, but took a very long to feed them, and not all of them were fed. So I thought that 11 may just be too many for her to handle. I found 3 that were unfed, and split them up between my other 2 does that were doing a fantastic at keep their kits fed. I waited a few days, and the kits that I fostered to the other does are doing as well as all the other kits.

I checked B's box, and 2 more were not fed, and 1 was dead, and so thin it literally looked like a limp flat of skin. Again like stated above 2 more of her kits have the runs, and she has removed most of the fur, and all of the hay from her nest.

My personal thought is, it's not the fact that she had so many kits that kept her from feeding, and she is not nervous since there's no predators in the garage, and her litter is doing so poorly I feel that she just has bad mother instincts. All 4 of my does are first timers, and she is the ONLY one having issues. The other 3 are doing great! A few kits hit the wire from being stuck to teat, but that's not something they purposely doing so I don't count it against them.

I feel that we just need to cull B when the time comes. I love the fact that she gave us the biggest litter, but she is not doing her job.

I want to ask, when should we cull her? (By cull I mean send her to freezer camp.)

Third
(Cloudy's litter: 3 weeks old.)

Now for Cloudy. She had 6 babies again all alive, and well. She did great for the first few weeks, but I became worried earlier last week. They are starting to jump out of the nest box, and play a lot more, but I noticed that when they go near mom, and try to feed she gets quite irritated, grunts, and runs off. They cuddle, and all sleep in a cute pile with her, but when ever they would go for a teat she wouldn't have it. I noticed this started right around the time they were able to hop out of the nest. Up until then she did great feeding. So Friday I came out to find one of my gorgeous Siamese kits dead as a door nail. I didn't think too hard about it, because when I had them in the house the day before that kit I caught eating carpet, and figured that is what caused him to keel over. When I got home earlier today I found another kit (My fluffy silver tipped) laying at the bottom of the cage, and dead as dead could be. I looked him over, and noticed just a touch of dried blood on his top lips, and some on his nose. I have no clue in hell what could have caused them to die.

I am hoping someone could give me sort of idea.

I also wanted to add that I have noticed her kits are a bit thin, but I don't know what to think, because Cloudy is a smaller breed, and has always seem very slim herself.

 

[wamplercathy]

I had one that was poopy butt and it past away. Don't know why, and no one else in the litter had an issue. Oats is suppose to be good for pooppy butt. As for mice, well all it takes is one. They also pee as they run to make a back trail when in a new area. :x :evil:

I hope this helps,
Cathy

 

[HansenHomestead]

Unfortunately I literally just discovered that B has Snuffles..

 

[Zass]

I can't tell you what to do, but I can share what I would do if it was happening to me.

Normally, I cull an under preforming doe when I harvest a litter, since it's my habit to leave kits with their dams as long as possible.
With snuffles added to the equation, I'd cull b and her brood asap.
Otherwise I know I'd experience rather extreme stress from trying to grow (already sick) kits out to 9 or 10 weeks while avoiding any possible infection to my other buns.

The suddenly dead kit with blood on the nose and mouth. That kind of sounds like a fall related death. It's uncommon, but I have had that happen here once. Is there a ramp or high ledge that kits might have fell from?

It is normal for kits to chase their dams when penned together, and it's normal for does to refuse to feed the kits on demand, since they typically feed only once or twice a day.

I see kits that still chase their dam as not-yet-weaned. A red flag for me is when there is no chasing, because that indicates that the kits may no longer see their dam as a food source.

But, it's also possible for some does to trample kits during this time. I've yet to ever have that happen, but I've read about it. A ledge to hop up on is often provided to give a doe a place to get away from their offspring's incessant and unreasonable demands...

 

[ladysown]

so "B" and her litter you need to IMMEDIATELY isolate. Then cull her when her kits are four weeks old. Then make a decision as to what to do with the kits. My suggestion is if you plan to keep any, keep them in isolation until they are bred and have kits. IF they have snuffles you'll see it in them OR in their kits. Easiest frankly is to cull the lot when big enough, but we don't always have that luxury.

As for "B's" nestbox.. just add more hay OR take the box away and bring to her twice a day. That way you can monitor kit condition better as well.

Cloudy.. if you haven't removed the nestbox already DO SO.
Kits can be REALLY stupid at times and some does seem to breed stupid.
Three week old kits are hungry ALL THE TIME. Mom gets irritated because she doesn't want to nurse all the time, and those kits need to learn to eat real food. They need hay and pellets where they can easily reach them. I use low lying candy or cat bowls for 2-3 week old litters
Energetic hungry kits + nervous, keep away from me, mom = dead kits. Those deaths come from mom accidentally stepping on them to get away from them, from kits running into the side wire too fast, or from nestboxes tipping on them.

At three weeks you can EASILY save them if you remove mom (though you don' t have to). Just give them hay, pellets etc. OR if you remove mom skip the pellets the first couple of days and just give them hay, water in a low bowl, and oatmeal. Have some probiotics (preferably for a ruminant) on hand for those that need it.

 

[HansenHomestead]

Thank you very much for the replies!

@Zass - Shortly after posting this I took B, and her kits into the house in my spare cage. I think I am going to wait till they are about 3.5 weeks, old, and start them on pellets, hay, and oatmeal, cull B, but keep the kits in the house under observation. Any that show signs of illness would be culled immediately.

Cloudys litter

No there are no ramps, or such in the cages, but I am thinking you are right. I feel that what could have possibly happened was. The other gets could have got excited while chasing momma, and he tried to scramble over the high side of the nest, and in a panic landed in such a way that caused his death. Which really sucks, because I lost 2 of the most beautiful colored kits, that I planned earlier on keeping. Thankfully I still have 1 more Siamese, and I think 1 more Silver Tipped. The other 2 are probably going to be black with maybe a touch of silver here, and there. When I noticed them chasing mom it was very early last week, maybe Sunday, or Monday. I have seen that no longer chasing her, and I have been putting pellets, and oatmeal in a bowl for them, and they love it. Even seen a few snacking on alfalfa.

@ladysown - I have already taken B, and the kits into the house, when dealing with the rabbits I handle B, and her babes last. Then go wash my hands with antibacterial soap. I plan on culling B when the kits are 3.5-4 weeks old, keeping them in the house, and culling any that show signs of illness.

Cloudy's litter I am going to garage after I finish my coffee, and disinfecting B's cage, since the only spare cage I had, has B, and her kits in it. Our system for right now is a long hutch with 5 cages built into it. Then 2 large converted into dog kennels that hold 2 of my bucks. Anyways. I need to shuffle Cloudy over to that cage, then clean out her cage, because I found a nice pile of rabbit droppings behind the nest box.

So now my question is about the kits. Since they are already taking to hay, pellets, and oatmeal, and once removing Cloudy. When do I consider them weaned out, and when can 1 of them be rehomed as a pet? I ask, because my husbands co-worker wants one for his daughter for Christmas. Though he knows there's a good chance they will not be ready until the end of January.

UDPATE

I checked over B before I went to bed, and I noticed that the white mucus was gone, her breathing sounded a lot better, I checked her paws, and there is no matting on them at all, and they are dry as a bone. I will continue to watch her closely (from a distance, lol) for a few days while she is in the house, and keep a log on her condition throughout the days. If within 3-4 days nothing accrues again, what should I do?

 

[Oscar]

If I were you I wouldn't send her to freezer camp quite yet and give her another chance to get it right. Is that her first litter?

 

[Marinea]

Normally, I would say give the first time doe another chance, but B is just giving you too many scares. Snuffles or not, I would likely cull her after the kits are weaned. If the kits survive, I might keep a doe, under close watch, and get her to breeding age and go from there. If there are any problems with the kit up to that point, I would cull it as well. I would try to figure out a configuration where it was not a part of your connected cages though.

As to Cloudy's kits, I would not let any leave before eight weeks, especially considering what all is going on right now.

So sorry you are having these problems. Please don't beat yourself up. I know how hard you're working at this. *hugs*

 

[HansenHomestead]

Oscar - I am sorry, but I do have to agree with, Marinea. I took the fact that she is a first timer deeply into consideration, but each day is problem after problem. I did even plan on replacing with some of my does with their kits.

Marinea - I do agree. I am going to be keeping her kits in the house under close watch, and any sign of issues will result in being culled. With the chickens having Coccidiosis, that was a big enough lose for me. The decision for me is very hard, but with the rabbits I feel that the BEST thing I could do for entirety of my herd is to cull any, and all who show signs of illness within a week of no change. They will be contained to the house, and watched closely for a week. If nothing improves, they will be culled. I completely understand that some first time mommas have an issue, or 2, but this is far too much for me, and possibility of Snuffles is something I do not want to toy with at all.

*hugs* I am trying very hard. Though my husband is around for the build, and butcher. Everything else there is falls upon my shoulders, and it is a weight I gladly bear.

My husband is a negative nelly, and is ready to up at every sign of trouble. :wr_blackcloud: <--- That fits him, lmao. I even told him that last night, and he looked me straight in the face, and said. No, no I am not. To which I replied... When we were dating, and had troubles, you were ready to give up, when building the chicken coop wasn't going as you planned, you wanted to give up. When the chickens had Coccidiosis, you were ready to take them to the butcher block, now there's something funky with the rabbits, and within minutes of finding out, you want to be done with the rabbits. He still tried to tell me otherwise, haha.

 

[wamplercathy]

Sometimes, when stressed, a rabbit will get snuffly. I had a doe that was snuffly after bring her home. I got a trio and only 1 animal showed signs. I thought odd. So I called the breeder and after some talking I calmed down. After a couple of days of limited exposure to the doe was right as rain. Although she would get snuffly if I handled her too much and she became over stressed. This doe went back to the breeder and I got another doe. The snuffly doe is doing great back were she feels the safest.

Just a thought, But would quarantine to be on the safe side,
Cathy

 

[HansenHomestead]

Thank you hun, she is away from the other rabbits for the time being, and I am keeping an eye on her. There is no more mucus right now. For about an hour she sounded a bit stuffed up, but still no mucus, or matting on her paws.

 

[FourRingCircus]

B is "B" for a reason, right? If that's the case, paired with everything else, I doubt I would want to deal with it. I have one that has a pistol attitude at times, but has calmed down quite a bit and is a decent mama from the one litter I have had with her. She's on the fence, but for now is staying. Had she turned out to be a poor mama doe that decision would have been easy (or if the kits had some obvious issues). The stuffy nose would be a bit stressful on top of everything else, but hopefully it was just a fluke and won't be back. Better to be safe than sorry with quarantine which I know you're already doing.