How old is too old to breed?

[rockyhillrabbits]

I have a Rex doe who has only had one litter in the year I have had her, and she came to me already bred. I got her last March and she will be 3 on April 21. The first litter she had for me, she pulled a ton of fur, made a great nest, had them in the box, raised a lovely litter of 6. After that, she refused to lift, or would lift and the buck would be successful, but she never got pregnant. The last litter she had, born in November, she stomped to death and partially ate a couple. This morning she had a litter of 6 but didn't pull hardly any fur and one was very premature. They froze to death.
Nothing has changed. The buck has sired litters to my other Rex doe, so it's not him.
My other Rex doe is also having issues with breeding. She has missed the last 3 times. She was bred a couple days ago but didn't lift and the buck only had one fall-off. They are not overweight and this doe will be 2 in June. I have bred older does who still did great. I'm ready to sell both of these as pets and find better, younger does. Hopefully my other Rex doe is a good mom. This will be her first litter for me.

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

Hasn't this been asked many times?

 

[Alaska Satin]

I have a Rex doe who has only had one litter in the year I have had her, and she came to me already bred. I got her last March and she will be 3 on April 21. The first litter she had for me, she pulled a ton of fur, made a great nest, had them in the box, raised a lovely litter of 6. After that, she refused to lift, or would lift and the buck would be successful, but she never got pregnant. The last litter she had, born in November, she stomped to death and partially ate a couple. This morning she had a litter of 6 but didn't pull hardly any fur and one was very premature. They froze to death.
Nothing has changed. The buck has sired litters to my other Rex doe, so it's not him.
My other Rex doe is also having issues with breeding. She has missed the last 3 times. She was bred a couple days ago but didn't lift and the buck only had one fall-off. They are not overweight and this doe will be 2 in June. I have bred older does who still did great. I'm ready to sell both of these as pets and find better, younger does. Hopefully my other Rex doe is a good mom. This will be her first litter for me.

Oh, I feel your pain! Sometimes, and it seems to come in waves, if it's not one thing, it's another! I'd like to say it's that steep learning curve when you're just starting out, but honestly, between my breeding partner and me, we have a combined history of about four decades of rabbit raising, and we're still encountering some new mystery pretty much every single year!

I usually think about retiring breeding does at around 3-4 years, but that's because they start having occasional missed conceptions and much smaller litters. It really does depend on the line and the particular rabbit. The mini breeds seem to be reproductively fit for longer than the bigger meat breeds, but I did have a Satin doe that was still giving me litters of 6-8 well into her fourth year.

Are you sure your does are not overweight? Most of the issues you're describing sound like what I've seen with overweight does. It has been my experience that the older does get, them more likely they are to put on extra fat. That interior fat really messes with breeding interest, conception rates and successful kindling. Even if they are the "right" weight for their breed they may be fat. Look for that telltale sign of softness/flab around their shoulders.

That would not, however, really explain her lack of interest in taking care of the nest and kits. That sounds more like there's something that's bugging her. It could environmental, it could be a health issue, and/or it could be her diet. Here are some thoughts:

Environmental
1) Stomping the kits, in my barn, always makes me think of mice. Most does have a serious problem with mice, and are willing to kill the kits in an effort to kill the mice.
2) Having failed litters in November and January might explain it a bit. I quit breeding for December-Januaury litters because, although most litters did fine, a very large proportion of litters I did lose occurred in those months. My theory is that even though you can get the rabbits to breed, their hormones are at a natural low, so some of them are not getting the proper chemical instructions from their body to do what they need to do. This might be especially true of an older doe, whose hormones are presumably ramping down a bit anyway.

Health
She could be carrying some kind of sub-clinical parasite load that's disrupting things. I've had more than one judge advise giving the rabbits a dose of fenbendazole (SafeGuard for horses) for mysterious out-of-condition episodes. I have used used it several times and I must admit, the turn-around sometimes looks miraculous - both their appearance and their vigor improved dramatically.

Diet
In another thread I described our battle to identify what turned out to be a Vitamin E deficiency, which completely wreaks havoc on reproduction:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/no-kits-to-show-for-help-lol.36111/#post-351182@MaggieJ also talk briefly about vitamin deficiencies here:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/my-rabbits-aren’t-breeding-help.35249/page-2#post-344993
It seems a shame to sell two proven does in exchange for unproven first-timers, who can have their own issues. Since they're both having problems (and 2 years old is not old for a breeding doe), I'd be inclined to try to figure it out if you can; and it certainly cold be more than one thing.

 

[rockyhillrabbits]

Hasn't this been asked many times?

Not by me it hasn't and since everyone has different situations and things going on, everyone should be allowed to ask questions. I'm sure lots of people have asked about the same color, or had the same questions about lots of different things. Normally, if I have nothing to say in response to a question that isn't helpful, I just keep scrolling.

 

[rockyhillrabbits]

Oh, I feel your pain! Sometimes, and it seems to come in waves, if it's not one thing, it's another! I'd like to say it's that steep learning curve when you're just starting out, but honestly, between my breeding partner and me, we have a combined history of about four decades of rabbit raising, and we're still encountering some new mystery pretty much every single year!

I usually think about retiring breeding does at around 3-4 years, but that's because they start having occasional missed conceptions and much smaller litters. It really does depend on the line and the particular rabbit. The mini breeds seem to be reproductively fit for longer than the bigger meat breeds, but I did have a Satin doe that was still giving me litters of 6-8 well into her fourth year.

Are you sure your does are not overweight? Most of the issues you're describing sound like what I've seen with overweight does. It has been my experience that the older does get, them more likely they are to put on extra fat. That interior fat really messes with breeding interest, conception rates and successful kindling. Even if they are the "right" weight for their breed they may be fat. Look for that telltale sign of softness/flab around their shoulders.

That would not, however, really explain her lack of interest in taking care of the nest and kits. That sounds more like there's something that's bugging her. It could environmental, it could be a health issue, and/or it could be her diet. Here are some thoughts:

Environmental
1) Stomping the kits, in my barn, always makes me think of mice. Most does have a serious problem with mice, and are willing to kill the kits in an effort to kill the mice.
2) Having failed litters in November and January might explain it a bit. I quit breeding for December-Januaury litters because, although most litters did fine, a very large proportion of litters I did lose occurred in those months. My theory is that even though you can get the rabbits to breed, their hormones are at a natural low, so some of them are not getting the proper chemical instructions from their body to do what they need to do. This might be especially true of an older doe, whose hormones are presumably ramping down a bit anyway.

Health
She could be carrying some kind of sub-clinical parasite load that's disrupting things. I've had more than one judge advise giving the rabbits a dose of fenbendazole (SafeGuard for horses) for mysterious out-of-condition episodes. I have used used it several times and I must admit, the turn-around sometimes looks miraculous - both their appearance and their vigor improved dramatically.

Diet
In another thread I described our battle to identify what turned out to be a Vitamin E deficiency, which completely wreaks havoc on reproduction:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/no-kits-to-show-for-help-lol.36111/#post-351182@MaggieJ also talk briefly about vitamin deficiencies here:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/my-rabbits-aren’t-breeding-help.35249/page-2#post-344993
It seems a shame to sell two proven does in exchange for unproven first-timers, who can have their own issues. Since they're both having problems (and 2 years old is not old for a breeding doe), I'd be inclined to try to figure it out if you can; and it certainly cold be more than one thing.

Thank you for the info. I had never heard that about the Vitamin E but it's definitely worth looking into. I do feed 16% pellets that are a complete feed. I am also 99% sure neither doe is underweight. The white doe just barely meets the weight requirement.
I have been raising rabbits over 5 years now and most of that time they were raised in the barn and I have never seen mice or rats or even their droppings in the tack room. We have several cats who patrol the area also.
I will most likely try deworming both and just see if that makes any difference.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thank you for the info. I had never heard that about the Vitamin E but it's definitely worth looking into.

Right, I was feeding a complete feed also but the change in ingredient sourcing (which did not show up on the feed tag) was the key. After seeing the improvement in our rabbits on the supplemental vit E regimen, I contacted the company making the feed (a local mill) and found out the whole back story.

I will most likely try deworming both and just see if that makes any difference.

That sounds like a good plan. IMO, temporarily adding supplemental Vit E as well wouldn't hurt them a bit.

Not by me it hasn't and since everyone has different situations and things going on, everyone should be allowed to ask questions. I'm sure lots of people have asked about the same color, or had the same questions about lots of different things. Normally, if I have nothing to say in response to a question that isn't helpful, I just keep scrolling.

I agree, every situation is unique in some ways, and new discussions often bring up new ideas and/or information. But maybe she was just alluding to the Search feature, through which you can access quite a few valuable and informative older discussions relating to common issues. According to the moderators, this feature isn't used very often.