How many litters to tell what they carry?

[GBov]

So I have started to make notes of color from each pairing to see who gives me what when crossed with who but it got me wondering............

How many litters does it take to tell what a doe or a buck will produce, color wise?

Right now I have 9 REW, 2 broken red, 1 broken black, 3 broken blue, 1 self blue, 2 self red and a few more does I am too tired to remember right now. :lol:

Bucks are a self red, self blue and broken red.

Am growing out a rew.

So, by what number litter can one realistically expect to no longer be surprised at the colors in the nest box?

 

[Zass]

I doesn't really go by #'s so much as genotype.

For example, my opal mutt doe Pancake

[album]2433[/album]

An opal is a visual agouti(A) and expressed dilute ( dd-cause two copies are require to show the color). I can clearly see she isn't an expressed chocolate(so she gets a B), chinchilla shaded or rew (so she gets one C, full color) and a clean opal is a nice full extension color (E)

A_ B_ C_ dd E_

I know her mother is a self lilac doe, so that guarantees her a copy of self(a) and chocolate(b) along with the dilution. Since the lilac will pass along one copy of those to all of her kits.
so now I have:

Aa Bb C_ dd E_

I bred her to my REW carrier SF buck, and had rew kits in the litter. So she has a (c) to show she also carries rew.

Aa Bb Cc dd E_

I would only need one more breeding to fill in that last blank. Since she's a mutt, it is possible she may have inherited a copy of non-extension from a new Zealand or Flemish ancestor.

So...with a little luck, the right bucks, and an understanding of what went into her, I could do it with two litters.

Comparing her genotype with a bucks will tell me what they can produce together and what surprises are still possible

There are still some possible genes that I haven't mentioned, for example...wideband, the only real way to turn ALL of those up is to find rabbits with those genes expressed and breed them together a few times to check. Bucks with many expressed recessives will tell me more in one breeding, of course.

And that is exactly why I keep that Lilac doe around to test my bucks for color.
(aa bb CC dd E_)

Knowing it's parents/grandparents can tell you the bulk of what it might be carrying.

 

[akane]

Some colors you can rule out or guarantee based on parents or a single breeding like REW. You can only get REW offspring if both rabbits have a c for REW. Sometimes you are never certain though. Such as if you breed a Cc (full color and rew) to a Cc (also full color and rew) you only have a 25% chance of cc (visual rew) and the odds don't always follow that rule in real life. You may not breed the doe enough times to the same buck to have the color show up or you may breed to a buck who is not carrying a c and have no chance of seeing it exists. I had a chocolate mini rex pair that I bred a dozen times getting only chocolates until 1 lilac showed up the last litter before I sold the doe. I was also breeding mutts and line breeding them many times. I had pedigrees for all the starting stock going back 6-10 generations with no surprises. 1 day I find a harlequin kit in the colony!? Unfortunately it was killed and I never saw another one.

 

[Dood]

That's true, you can never really know unless you produce hundreds of kits.

For example

One of my harlequin Mini Lop bucks didn't produce a tort out of 27 offspring, even when crossed to a non extension doe (a sable point), so I "thought" he had two harlequin genes and would only ever produce harlies BUT kits 28 and 29 were torts :shock: so I had to change the genotype I had for him.

Since then he has fathered a couple more torts but not the 50% or 25% that, statistically, he "should" be producing :mrgreen:

You state you have

a self red

but this is not true. Reds are not self but agouti, non-extension and wideband - A_ B_ C_ D_ ee ww - this combo makes them "look" self but they are actually agouti based.

 

[GBov]

Mwarrrrgggggg my brain isn't ready for this :lol: but its JUST what I wanted so thanks guys!

Dood, I thought I was being clever calling Red Bull a self red but what a mouth full to call him!

Akane, I have a litter right now from a broken blue doe and a gold tipped steel buck (now gone to his reward) that has a rew, a broken red, two broken black and what looks like a black but is most likely gts. As the buck is gone I am interested in seeing what she produces when crossed with my blue buck.

Does gold tipped steel come in broken?

Of course, broken blue is flavor of the month here :roll: so I don't have a single one in any nest box but, with 7 litters hopefully on the way next week, one might show up.

Am trying to get my head round who makes what when crossed with who but I think its going to do me head in! :lol: Good thing I don't care what colors the Rex give me (if they ever come up to scratch :evil: ) as any Rex is a good Rex and none will be for sale for a very looooooooong time! Mine, ALL MINE Mwhahahahaaaahahahaaaa *cough cough*

 

[Dood]

Any colour can be broken.

And any colour can be diluted or chocolatized or chinchilla'd or dutched or etc.... as long as they aren't on the same locus, or need another colour / pattern to make them visual, they can all be mixed and matched.

 

[GBov]

Any colour can be broken.

And any colour can be diluted or chocolatized or chinchilla'd or dutched or etc.... as long as they aren't on the same locus, or need another colour / pattern to make them visual, they can all be mixed and matched.

So, with a GTS buck and a broken blue doe, the three that look black and broken black are going to be steel instead of black, right?

Bummer!

I am getting happier and happier that we ate the GTS buck!

 

[Dood]

There is a 50% chance

 

[GBov]

There is a 50% chance

No there isn't Dood, not with rabbits I WANT to be black, there is now a 100% chance of their being not only gold tipped steel but, if I wanted them to be does, they would all be bucks as well!

Rabbits is like that! :lol:

 

[skysthelimit]

I've been breeding the same closed herd for year 4 now, bred by the same breeder for more than that, and I finally, got my first chocolate based kit out of a couple hundred litters.

I bred blues and blue carriers all summer and did not get a single blue out of the 75 or so odd Rex kits.

What you should get is what those percentages mean, what you actually get is where the dice roll comes in.

I love genetics

 

[GBov]

I love genetics

Yeh, you so look like you do! :lol:

I have found if you want it one way, it will be another. If you only care about ONE kit in a litter, its a gonner. If the sex of a rabbit - checked and double checked and triple checked - really matters, its going to be NOT what you need it to be, no mater how many times you check and it looks good. Its going to change at the last second.

I love rabbits, sometimes! :roll: :lol:

 

[Zass]

If you only care about ONE kit in a litter, its a gonner.

yep.
100% chance

:lol:

 

[TwoAcreDream]

What you should get is what those percentages mean, what you actually get is where the dice roll comes in. I love genetics

I believe percentages work like this. 50 % for example.
So EACH SINGLE kit is a SEPARATE SITUATION by themselves.
So if 8 kits in a litter, they could all end up being the 50 %
type/color/etc, you did not want them to be.
So not 4 of 8, being what you want them to be.

Math is always fun......

 

[skysthelimit]

What you should get is what those percentages mean, what you actually get is where the dice roll comes in. I love genetics

I believe percentages work like this. 50 % for example.
So EACH SINGLE kit is a SEPARATE SITUATION by themselves.
So if 8 kits in a litter, they could all end up being the 50 %
type/color/etc, you did not want them to be.
So not 4 of 8, being what you want them to be.

Math is always fun......

I believe the percentages work like this:

I have found if you want it one way, it will be another. If you only care about ONE kit in a litter, its a goner. If the sex of a rabbit - checked and double checked and triple checked - really matters, its going to be NOT what you need it to be, no matter how many times you check and it looks good. Its going to change at the last second.

I am trying not to get too attached to the chocolate based kit in this litter. It seems the dilute agouti kit wasn't killed by the dam, but somehow smashed in all the nest material and got cold, while the box was in my HOUSE!!! First dilute agouti in 3 years and see what happened. i am only looking in the box to check on them, no attachment forming. I will however, continue to breed for specific colors, lol.