How genetic is temperament?

[PSFAngoras]

Okay, so here's the story. In august I bought a cute little 10 week old chocolate angora doe who was sweet as anything the day I went to pick her up. It was probably the only time I've ever been disappointed that the rabbit I wanted was a doe, as I have two does that can throw chocolate if paired with the right buck, which I'm not sure I have with my normal two boys.

So anywho, I bought the girl. She is from a very reputable breeder here in CO and has the most beautiful conformation and wool density, even if she is a tad shorter than I'd like my wool to be. Here's the thing, and it started about two weeks after I brought her home, while she'll gladly eat treats out of your hand, if you have no treats or if you happen to try and attempt to touch her, she looses it. She growled, she boxes, she bites if you give her the chance. It's not cage dominance, she's been moved twice and it hasn't changed, and she's been here for long enough to know that it's not stress from moving. It's not medical either, there is absolutely nothing wrong. I think she was just confused before she settled in, and then it was back to her normal behavior. This breeder does cull for this sort of thing, but when you have a large number of rabbits I can see how one might slip through the cracks.

I can't stand her. Not even the other rabbits can stand her. They pee on her and throw their water bowls at her. So here's the question. If I wait two more months until I can breed her, how easily will the kits pick up that temperament? Is it that genetic? I know it seems like the good temperaments transfer, but does it work on bad too? Never had a rabbit this nasty! I do plan on getting one litter from each buck, breeding back as soon as she kindles the first litter, and keeping the litters away from momma unless its time to nurse. Also, soon as the second litter is weaned, momma is freezer bait.

Will the temperament be there in the kits too, even being raised without mom? I won't sell a rabbit like that, too much risk. Just curious if anyone has any experience breeding nasty tempered rabbits. I've never dealt with it before. Should I give it a go, or should I just cull and try to get another chocolate out of what I already have, though it will take a few generations and a lot of line breeding (not that I'm against it, just so much work when I can make a chocolate with this doe, provided she doesn't pass on her attitude).

What do you all think?

 

[ladysown]

i would get a throwaway doe (or one that you have no problem eating or her babies). Toss her into quarantine. Make sure she's a sweet tempered lass. get HER to raise the kits from that doe.

Gets rid of the momma training the kits to behave poorly aspect and gets you nice tempered kits UNLESS it is genetic.

Biscuit who is miss temperamental if in close confinement... gives me nice tempered kits and her kits are even NICER when raised by a holland lop. her girls can go through a temperamental stage when maturing which is why they don't go to pet homes, but once they are past that they are nice, easy to work with rabbits.

so not always genetic...can be taught though. which is why I advise a throwaway nice tempered proven doe that you can breed to foster from the miss not so nice.

 

[PSFAngoras]

Luckily nice mommas are something I do have in store, four to be exact, and one has small litters and lots of milk, so I love that idea. She is a bit more shy, but her kits are still very well mannered and like attention, thought by might learn how to use their nest box as a toy, but hey, I'll take that any day over biting!

Hadn't thought of fostering, thanks!

 

[ladysown]

no problem. I sometimes think I foster too easy and fast. I love the effects it can have though on bunnies. I have a bossy pants holland lop (not mean just bossy) so I breed her along side my polish ... give HER kits to the polish so they don't become miss bossy pants and the polish babies are always somewhat shy and never bossy so I worry not on them learning those bossy traits.

And biscuit always gets four or five of her kits fostered, and I switch buns around all the time.

Tattoo pens are EXCELLENT inventions... dots, lines and x's are easy to add into bunny ears regardless of age.

 

[PSFAngoras]

Oh, well foster momma to be is a short hair, so when the kits are all about 5 weeks I'll know who's who!<br /><br />__________ Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:53 am __________<br /><br />Okay, scratch that idea.

I was just grooming, and even the possibility of her temperament being genetic is just too much of a risk to take. The thought of a litter full of THAT, whether fostered or not, is unbearable.

Kicking screaming, boxing, biting, growling, just about every undesirable behavior short of peeing on me, she did.

Thank for the help though. Guess I'll be taking the long way around getting another chocolate angora.

 

[Northwinds Rabbitry]

I have a doe and buck who used to be, like that to and I........... Bred the two:/ but the kits were raised by the nasty doe and they are all nice bunnies(ps both buck and doe did get over the nstyness the buck I think grew out of it as I got him young and now he's a SR .

Good luck!!!

 

[PSFAngoras]

I've had this girl here for for almost four months and her temperament hasn't changed. Can't stand it any longer, one of the main reasons I love French angoras so much is their laid back temperament. Decided its best not to risk introducing that temperament to my herd. I have a friend who needs to send a few older rabbits to FC too, so I'll see if we can't just get together and get it knocked out this weekend.

 

[skysthelimit]

I had a mini rex like that, gave the kit to the holland with sweet kits. Nope.

I culled Fava2's mom, (Fava 1), not a nice doe unless bred. Fava 2 is not that friendly, but she's better. And her kits are friendly. So it was the doe.

Have a JW like that now. She is awful, it's so bad, I think I hate her. Her nails are super long because I can't groom her. Had her for a year now. I have a buck from her but I kept no does. She won't make it through the week.

It depends. When I reach my tolerance, genetic or environment doesn't matter, they go.

 

[DumansArk]

Awwww, Sorry PSF That's a hard decision to make, but with nutty behavior like that, phew...

I hope your search for a nice Chocolate buck is a success!

 

[PSFAngoras]

Thanks.

Not an easy decision, no, as I really want the chocolate colored wool, but I just can't take her attitude anymore. I do have other ways to get chocolates, but it will be a minimum of two generations.

Bummed, but at only 6 months old she's already 11 pounds, so she'll be a good meal at least.

 

[Zab]

Interesting thread.

I have a couple of does whom I want kits from but they're not very.. nice. They're terrified of me, frankly. But then again they wern't handeled much the first 4 months of their lives at the breeders, and when handeled shew grabbed a hold of their ears to keep them still. They're very careful with their ears. So I'm not sure it's genetic with them, I get the feeling they want to be nice. Never biting or kicking once I have them in my hands, but very shy.

However.. my most super sweet rabbit ever is a buck. Could I place the nestbox (at let's say day 17 or something, before they start crawling out) in his cage, and bring them to the doe once or twice a day to be fed?
What's the chance that the buck will harm them?

 

[PSFAngoras]

I think your does are just shy, and it is an easily taught behavior. On of my favorite does I picked out at 4 weeks old. The breeder (a different one from the one who I got he chocolate from) left her with momma who was already shy, and then didn't work on handleing her since she already had a home lined up. The result was a beautiful, very sweet doe who is terrified of everything. As soon as you pick her up, she's great. She snuggles, she sleeps in your lap when watching movies and drools in the process, but to catch her is bloody hell.

The chocolate doe is nothing like that... Think Monty Pythons killer rabbit. Trading the kits out wih a friendly rabbit does sound like a great idea, but I don't know about housing them with a buck. My boys try to mount anything that moves, no matter the size, so I would fear he would be too rough, even if just by accident..

 

[Zab]

PSF - Yes, I think that too, which is why I think they would become nice does if my super sweet, social buck raises them My other does are not as bad, but not overly friendly compared to the buck.

Hm.. Kori doesn't hump anything except ready does, and Peta doesn't even hump those. He seems to have no idea what to do with a doe.. *sigh* But if that keeps being the case, I might try with him anyhow It would be great to replace Spira and possibly Sotöra with two does that's friendly and social and raises social kits..

Any good idea on how to handle kits to make them social? I've tried giving treats, petting, picking them up a bit but not too much and tried to be gentle with them.. but at about 5-6 weeks they still start getting skittish. Except for Kummins kits.. I guess I could try to foster some kits to her, but she's not always nice to other rabbits, excewpt her sister.

 

[skysthelimit]

This is one of the reasons I pull my nest boxes. Kits should know me pretty well by the time they can move around. I'm always pulling kits out of the cage for various things. If a bun born here is skiddish, it's not from lack of handling.

 

[Ramjet]

This is one of the reasons I pull my nest boxes. Kits should know me pretty well by the time they can move around. I'm always pulling kits out of the cage for various things. If a bun born here is skiddish, it's not from lack of handling.

I don't pull nest boxes and pretty much leave the kits alone the first week or so ... Im afraid to injure them (more afraid my kids will so if I don't , they don't).


I have noticed a difference in the activity of kits raised by my two rex does - one mother is very relaxed the other is sociable but doesn't care to be picked up or handled other than petting in her cage.
Their kits act significantly different (in the popple stage) the relaxed mother's kits don't struggle and fight to escape while the other's try to get away until they settle down and realize they aren't in danger.

This is a very small sample size as these are my first two litters and I cant compare them at later ages yet as one litter is ~6 weeks old while the other is 12 days old. I'll definitely be making further observations on these and future litters .... and possibly have them swap litters at some point and see if there are any changes in kit behavior.

 

[PSFAngoras]

I don't pull nest boxes either, but my kits are checked if not handled every day from day one. My kits may not always come tithe door to beg for attention (though most of them do), but all of them are content with being pet and picked up, being flipped over, and fed by hand. I have no issues with my kits getting skittish later on, though they sometimes start that way.

Temperament is the second on my list of things I breed for, right after wool quality (then conformation, then color...). That's why I was so terrified of adding the chocolate doe to the mix, though she would have been amazing addition as far as conformation is concerned. Instead, she made it into the freezer this last weekend. Oh well, guess well see how it turns out without her.

 

[-HRanchito]

I notice some of my buns tend to be skittish, so I think it is at least partly genetic. I handle all the kits the same -- In my most recent litters, most are just calmly eating on their hay at breakfast while one is looking at me like I'm godzilla. I def. agree on temperament. I've never had a rabbit growl at me, so I think angoras were maybe bred for temperament better than some breeds. Sorry this girl was such a bummer. Hard to find what you need in the southwest. (If you want to cross in a satin pm me -- I have chocobucks!)

 

[PSFAngoras]

You have no idea how much I want to take you up on that offer, but I have no space to start on a new breed, even as badly as I have been dying to get my hands another satin angora since I lost my Ginger girl.

However... If your still in it in a few years when I manage to get a place with space to expand my rabbitry... I will happily buy a trio or two from you then!

__________ Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:36 pm __________

Ugh, just looked at your page of who's available... Do you plan to have litters ready around next Taos wool festival? I might have to buy a trio from you then (and go find a Kleenex to wipe the drool off my face)...

 

[ckcs]

I feel temperament is at least partially genetic, possible mostly. I base this on I bred my nicest two rabbits. I kept two of their babies back and they are wonderful. Recently those two has a litter and all 5 of the babies are the nicest we have ever had. That is saying a lot since we only breed very friendly rabbits. The grand sire and sire are easily our nicest 2 rabbits. They greet you like a dog and can't wait to be petted and picked up. The sire is my avatar.

 

[Oceanrose]

I have 0 tolerance for aggression or snarky behavior in my rabbits. Partially because I raise angoras, partially because my main breed is a breed that has an old reputation for being snarky. I expect calm, friendly rabbits who enjoy people and being petted, are easy to groom, handle and who don't stress out.

Sorry about your doe, but I think it's the right decision. BTW - I have someone picking up a couple rabbits from the NW possibly, and driving them back to Colorado. I also know of someone who has awesome Chocolate French, breeds for excellent meaty bodies, and great correct coats. PM me if you're interested, maybe we could arrange transport back toward you....