How do I deal with an AR nut?

[JessicaR]

This a difficult situation.
My daughter has a new friend that moved in down the road. The kid is really a nice kid very polite and quiet, but his mom says she is an ARA. :x I don't want to tell my daughter that she cant hang out with this kid, as she has a hard time making new friends and there is not very many kids her age around here that she can play with. She has been playing with the kid for a couple of months now with no problems, mom knew we raised meat chickens (didn't tell her about the rabbits) and was fine with, she said that she would only eat chicken that was raised by her friend, not from the store. Then she says I am a big animal rights activist. Red flags started to go up with that!

Yesterday my daughter went to their house to play. When she came home she asked... when we drink milk are we drinking pus? I guess the kids mom told her they only drink almond milk because cows milk is nothing but pus. Then she told her that when baby cows are born they are taken from the mom and thrown out in the backyard to starve to death so we can drink their milk. I explained to my daughter that this was not true and why, and she was fine with my answer and eat her cereal with milk this morning, with no problems.

The problem now is how do I deal with this person? I don't want to tell my daughter she cant play with the kid, because she does like him and doesn't have anyone else nearby. But I also don't want to have this person make her think we are "bad" people for raising our own meat. (which so far she hasn't)

 

[Dood]

I think the kids mom sounds more like a Animal WELFARE activist.

she said that she would only eat chicken that was raised by her friend, not from the store

and chooses to eat products from animals treated more naturally and not on "factory farms".

Explain to your daughter this is why you are raising rabbits, and if you had the land, time and money to have your own milk cow you would

 

[MaggieJ]

Sorry, I've forgotten how old your daughter is, but if she is at least seven or eight, she is old enough to begin to understand that not all people have the same ideas or beliefs about things. Keep it low key and emphasize that people do not have to agree on everything in order to get along and even be friends. Then, moving from the general to the specific, say that you have noticed that the family down the road have some different ideas about food, for instance ... and that this is okay but that you hope when she hears a new idea that seems strange or weird (like the cow's milk/pus thing) that she will talk to you about it.

No one gets out of childhood without being exposed to many ideas that are strange, not in accordance with their family culture and sometimes just plain inaccurate. We can't raise kids in a bubble. We can encourage them to talk to us and to think critically about new ideas. "Does that seem likely to you?" is a start. "Does it seem likely that dairy farmers would put out calves to starve? Where would the next generation of milk cows come from later on if they did that?" You may have to address the issue of unwanted bull calves and what happens to them, so be prepared. Your daughter is already knowledgeable about where her food comes from, so this will help.

The realities of modern dairy farming lay it open to a lot of criticism and some of it is deserved. Society is a long way from keeping a family cow or even from the family farm's milk cans on the stoop awaiting pick up. Knowledge about what is happening nowadays and some ideas how methods could be improved will help offset the almond milk mentality. We don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You may want to teach your daughter the difference between animal rights activists and animal welfare advocacy. The concept of being a Good Steward is important and offers a valid and respectable alternative. As Dood points out, you may not be as far apart from your neighbour on these issues as you think.

One thing I remember from my own childhood. My mother chose times when we were working together (getting supper ready, doing the dishes etc.) for her little chats. It meant I couldn't get away until she had had her say. Who'd have thought my sweet mother could be so sneaky? :lol:

 

[Bad Habit]

**disclaimer - I don't have children, so take this with a grain of salt**

I would talk to the other mother. Personally, I find her telling your child that "we don't drink milk because its full of pus and the farmer starves the calf to death to keep the milk to sell" to be inappropriate, and raising huge white flags that she's not into animal welfare, but actually into animal rights. I would ask the other mother to refrain from using such graphic and emotionally charged explanations for differences. Simply saying "we don't drink milk because we don't like using anything that comes from an animal" is an equally valid way to get their beliefs across. There is no need to be graphic about it. The woman doesn't know your child, and for all she knew, telling your daughter that the calves are left to starve could have given her nightmares(it would my one niece). I would be very polite talking to the woman, telling her that you respect her beliefs, that you're not trying to change how she lives, but that you're asking her to be a little less specific, less graphic, and very much more g rated when it comes to how she explains these things to your daughter.

But I very much dislike seeing ARA's trying to persuade children of things. I've seen it before, when my niece has been at market with one of my rabbits, someone go up to her and try and tell her that rabbit breeding is awful and that there's already too many rabbits and blah blah blah... She's old enough to have a general understanding of the ARA's(we talk about it a lot when she's here helping me tattoo - especially now that she's started bow hunting), and she generally just smiles and nods, but these people are trying to turn a child against a family member. It's not right at all.

I would also go with what MaggieJ suggested, and having a talk with her regarding different beliefs.

 

[Comet007]

Oh, what a sticky wicket!

I have actually run into this type of thing when my kids were younger, but it came in the form of different religious beliefs. I did actually have a talk with the mothers whenever it happened. I also have a sister who is (was?) Wiccan, and I had problems with her talking to my daughter, telling her what terrible parents we were for raising her as a Christian, because Wiccan's believe that you can't try to indoctrinate anyone under 18, and even then you're supposed to let them just choose for themselves. Funny, since she spent a whole day trying to indoctrinate my 15 year old - Oh, we had some words about that!

I see the animal rights as the same thing as religious beliefs. As parents, we teach our children according to what we have decided to believe. When they get older, they are free to question and decide for themselves - we actually always encouraged our kids to question, because I think it ended up giving them more solid beliefs, because they knew WHY they believed.

If I were you, I would sit down for a coffee/tea with the other mother and have a very non confrontational conversation. All mothers want their children to have good friends, so I would start with that, telling her that you value the friendship and want to protect it. How the parents need to protect the friendship is basically to stay out of it - not using it as an opportunity to spread beliefs one way or the other about animal rights. You can tell her that you will not discuss the opposite of animal rights with her child (however would you phrase that?? ) and ask that she not talk to your child about food choices or views on animal rights.

I have two kids, and we went out of the way to set things up so that we were the house kids wanted to hang out at - so we always knew the kids that our kids were friends with. Sometimes on weekends we would have 20 or so extra kids - due to our pool table, small basketball court, and video and dance games. After school it was usually more in the 2-6 range. In my extensive experience, all you really need to talk to those kids about is what they are interested in, how is school, basketball, cheerleading, what have you going? There's almost never a need to talk about yourself at all with other people's kids, or to give them advice except maybe stay in school, get good grades, be respectful, etc. Even on the respect issue - that was always about what OUR house rules were, and they had to respect them.

 

[Zass]

I agree with everyone about having a conversation with the mother.

I remember a few confrontational conversations I was forced to have when my own children were young and impressionable. Religion is a big one here.
It's not a nice feeling to have those talks, but you are the one raising your own children, and you will feel better when it's done.

As to those topics, if they are old enough, it might be good to sit down with the kids and have a research session online. Find the facts and let them see for themselves.

 

[grumpy]

I don't tolerate "fools" very well at all. Your daughter's friend should be able
to come over whenever she wants. BUT.......... I'd keep my daughter away
from folks like your neighbor. It's a free country and they can spout off all
that BS they want..........as long as it doesn't affect my child.

Once that occurs, they'll meet a completely new kind of "crazy" from me.
It's not pretty and since I'm fairly outspoken, they'll know exactly my position
and what they can do and where they can deposit their diatribe. I'm afraid
it would get ugly very quickly if it were my child.

I had a doctor one time start discussing "Sexual-Behavior" with my boys
while they were having their sport's physicals. It took less that ten seconds
for me to remind her..............
"That's NOT YOUR JOB!!! Doc. You worry bout their physical health.
You had damned well better leave the rest to me.
I'm their Dad...that's "MY" job.....Not yours."
I don't pull any punches when it comes to my children. It's obvious your
neighbor doesn't take your position into consideration. Why??? Should you
worry about hers. Tell her to buzz off and leave your child alone.

grumpy

PS: "Diplomacy" gets thrown out the window when it comes to my boys.
WHO by the way: Are young men in their mid to early twenties. They are
healthy, heterosexual young men, who DO NOT have several little kids being
born out of wedlock. Who work hard at full time jobs, date occasionally,
have a beer every now and then. And they stay out of trouble. If, and when,
they date a girl, they use the precautions necessary to avoid issues that may
arise in the future.

Sorry: I'll hop off of my soapbox now.

 

[CDiana]

A lot of kids go through that phase. I went through it for awhile. I was on a rant about something one day. I think it was at my grandparent's dairy farm. I think I was complaining about people wearing fur. Then I cant remember who it was showed me an old picture of the farm. And started telling me stories about how grandpa had minks that he used to raise for fur when my dad and his siblings were kids. Well I couldn't think bad about my grandpa, he was one of my favorite relatives after all. And then shortly later I was reading an article about a bunch of activists and how they went to a mink farm and released all the minks. Most of the mink ended up getting run over on a busy road not far away. I guess a lot of activist say its better for animals to die from getting run over than to have to live in cages for eventual killing. I quickly realized that a lot of activist are really stupid.

I also agree with talking to her friends mother. She should not be spouting her beliefs to your daughter when you did not give her your permission to do so. I am religious, but my sister is not. I know better than to bring up my beliefs and views unless they bring up the topic first. It's a respect thing. My older son will sometimes come home complain about something a classmate said that related to holidays or religion. I constantly tell him not to worry about it. They have a right to believe the way they want as long as they are not trying to force everyone else to believe the same way. To just ignore comments he doesn't agree with rather than trying to start a debate.

 

[Comet007]

I would agree with Grumpy's position - but only as plan B if a nice and easy talk doesn't work. I do think that just about every friendship a child has is valuable, as long as it's a safe one. If that talk didn't work and you decided to keep your kid out of her way, then I personally would be as subtle as possible about it and tell your child not to let on. She sounds like the kind of woman who might not let her child at your house either if she figures it out. Tough call, buy you're a Mom, so if this is the worst one you ever face, count your lucky stars!

 

[DogCatMom]

A lot of kids go through that phase. I went through it for awhile. I was on a rant about something one day. I think it was at my grandparent's dairy farm. I think I was complaining about people wearing fur. Then I cant remember who it was showed me an old picture of the farm. And started telling me stories about how grandpa had minks that he used to raise for fur when my dad and his siblings were kids. Well I couldn't think bad about my grandpa, he was one of my favorite relatives after all. And then shortly later I was reading an article about a bunch of activists and how they went to a mink farm and released all the minks. Most of the mink ended up getting run over on a busy road not far away. I guess a lot of activist say its better for animals to die from getting run over than to have to live in cages for eventual killing. I quickly realized that a lot of activist are really stupid.

I say this to your younger self: "From the mouths of babes and children, wisdom will flow forth." Yep. Certainly more wisdom than that of the animal "rights" activists who condemned those poor minks to a brief life of terror as they experienced killing by cars--large, swift-moving objects they had never before seen and which most likely terrified them while they either froze in fear or tried to run for their lives. Either way, terribly sad and not free.

 

[arachyd]

I agree with Grumpy too. I also think there is another problem here. I understand that a conversation about not trying to indoctrinate someone else's child is in order but this wasn't just a matter of opinion or even religious belief that can have more than one interpretation of what is right. There is also the issue that she LIED to your daughter to try to change her beliefs. The fact that milk is not pus, in fact, has antimicrobial properties and is intended to give nourishment is just that - a fact. Imagine how this could have affected your daughter's thinking if she had a breastfed sibling at the time or other situation where milk is being used appropriately. I'd set that woman straight on telling lies to my child and I would not be polite about it. If your daughter is desperate for friends let the friends come to your house. Don't sacrifice truth and your principles in the name of her friendship because it will come back to bite you.

 

[MaggieJ]

I understand the temptation to let this woman have it... but to my way of thinking, the most important issue is for Jessica to prepare her daughter to deal with the weird ideas she will encounter in the world. My parents did this for me and my siblings and I will be forever grateful. (They made lots of mistakes too, but that's okay... They did pretty well overall.)

I didn't really get the sense that the woman was trying to indoctrinate Jessica's daughter. I envisioned a scenario more like this:

J's daughter: Almond milk? I've never had that before.
Friends mom: It's all we use. We never buy cow's milk. It has pus in it.
J's daughter: Really? (and thinking, "Gotta ask my mom about that!")

The important thing is that Jessica's daughter did come home and ask her about it. If Jessica torpedoes that friendship, the next time her DD has doubts, she may not be so open about voicing them. Friendships are important to kids.

Misinformation is everywhere. You can't raise kids in a bubble. You can teach them to be strong in their convictions and skeptical of views that seem "off". I was seven when a teacher marked something wrong on a test that I knew from first-hand experience was correct. (Squirrel versus rabbit tracks.) It was a revelation to me that an adult could be wrong. My parents did not rush off to the school and make a fuss. Instead they agreed I was right and said that even teachers sometimes make mistakes. It was an important realization for me and it helped to make me appropriately skeptical as I matured.

Jessica may want to talk to the kid's mom, and she certainly should encourage the kids to hang out at her place instead of down the road, but I think it would be shortsighted to give the mom a lambasting without trying to communicate first. It might relieve her feelings but there are more important issues here.

 

[Comet007]

I agree with Grumpy too. I also think there is another problem here. I understand that a conversation about not trying to indoctrinate someone else's child is in order but this wasn't just a matter of opinion or even religious belief that can have more than one interpretation of what is right. There is also the issue that she LIED to your daughter to try to change her beliefs. The fact that milk is not pus, in fact, has antimicrobial properties and is intended to give nourishment is just that - a fact. Imagine how this could have affected your daughter's thinking if she had a breastfed sibling at the time or other situation where milk is being used appropriately. I'd set that woman straight on telling lies to my child and I would not be polite about it. If your daughter is desperate for friends let the friends come to your house. Don't sacrifice truth and your principles in the name of her friendship because it will come back to bite you.

I almost hate to say this - but my religious beliefs ARE based on facts and historical evidence, otherwise I wouldn't believe them - I can't think of anything more critical than where we ultimately end up. Someone who told my child something glaringly in opposition to those beliefs is more important than confusion about a food issue, and would just as equally be a lie. Regardless - each parent has to decide for themselves whether to use the hammer or grace to address the situation, according to how they perceive the situation. Oddly enough, sometimes the hammer brings about grace.

MaggieJ could very well be right in how this situation came about - and really the best possible thing happened, her daughter came home and asked her mother about it! That right there says a lot, and I'm sure this will turn into a great teaching moment, and an introduction to needing to use discernment and wisdom when we process/filter the information in the outside world. It's one reason we didn't mind our kids being exposed to different ideas and questioning things (to a degree lol), because the best time to teach them discernment is while they're growing.

 

[bunnychild]

As a kid that grew up at a Episcopal church but went to a Catholic school I was (still am sometimes) kind of confused on what exactly my beliefs were. I would encourage your child to question thinks so that you can explain what your beliefs are of course I am not big on forcing it on them but I don't think you are the one doing any forcing.

 

[Dood]

There is also the issue that she LIED to your daughter to try to change her beliefs. The fact that milk is not pus,

This is not lie. Dairy milk does have pus in it, it is called the "somatic cell count" and there is a certain level of pus allowed in milk intended for human consumption before it is condemned and used for puppy and kitten milk and livestock feeds instead.

In fact the USA has one of the highest a somatic cell count limits, nearly double that of Canada and Europe -

National Milk Producers Federation (NMPF) had asked the NCIMS voting delegates – a group of state regulators overseeing milk safety rules – to reduce the maximum threshold of allowable somatic cells in milk at the farm level from the current 750,000 cells/mL, down to 400,000, starting in 2014. But on a vote of 26-25, the voting delegates rejected the proposal, meaning that the status quo threshold of 750,000 cells will remain.

Gotta love them lobbyists :mrgreen:

 

[tank333]

There is also the issue that she LIED to your daughter to try to change her beliefs. The fact that milk is not pus,

This is not lie. Dairy milk does have pus in it, it is called the "somatic cell count" and there is a certain level of pus allowed in milk intended for human consumption before it is condemned and used for puppy and kitten milk and livestock feeds instead.

In fact the USA has one of the highest a somatic cell count limits, nearly double that of Canada and Europe -

National Milk Producers Federation (NMPF) had asked the NCIMS voting delegates – a group of state regulators overseeing milk safety rules – to reduce the maximum threshold of allowable somatic cells in milk at the farm level from the current 750,000 cells/mL, down to 400,000, starting in 2014. But on a vote of 26-25, the voting delegates rejected the proposal, meaning that the status quo threshold of 750,000 cells will remain.

Gotta love them lobbyists :mrgreen:

I wouldnt say it is a lie, but it is certainly misleading information. I have worked with dairy farmers before, and every one I have ever worked with takes VERY good care of his cattle. It is true that on large scale factory farms the cows are not cared for well and the sometimes develop pustules on their udders which burst when the automztic milking apparatus is places on her teats. It happens occassionally, but it is not prevalent.

It is the same way when you work with any large scale production operation. There are certain tolerance limits for contaminants. It doesn't mean those contaminates are always present. It just means theres always the potential for it to be there. When I worked on a fishing ship in Alaska, we produced surimi (fish paste for making imitation seafood products like krab), and we routinely tested the finished product for contaminant levels. There's always some tiny bits and pieces of the fish guts that get sent into the mincer instead of to the gut-line. Never in the entire time I worked there did the contaminant level ever exceed the QA standards.

Just wanted to bring a little personal experience to the subject of contaminants in our food...

 

[Dood]

I'm not dissing milk products - I'm a BIG fan and eat triple the national average

There is some level of contamination in all food - like bugs and rodents that fall into the 10 ton batches of Cheerios - and a certain amount is allowed.

Somatic cell count is one of the reasons raw milk is banned and milk must be pasteurized to kill anything harmful

 

[tank333]

I'm not dissing milk products - I'm a BIG fan and eat triple the national average

There is some level of contamination in all food - like bugs and rodents that fall into the 10 ton batches of Cheerios - and a certain amount is allowed.

Somatic cell count is one of the reasons raw milk is banned and milk must be pasteurized to kill anything harmful

Oh, for sure. I completely understand. I LOVE my dairy products. BUT, I also prefer raw milk from the small organic dairy that is up the road from me. I personally feel the benefits outweigh the risks, especially when it comes from a small farm that focuses on the individual health of each animal.

As for contaminants, its a part of why my wife hated catsup for years. When she was in grade-school, she went on a field trip to a heinz factory and saw dear rats and rotten tomatoes get scooped off the floor and dropped into the vat to be processed... lol In any large production facility there are bound to be lazy or inept employees that give a poor image to the entire industry (or greedy execs, for that matter)...

 

[JessicaR]

Sorry I have been absent for so long, had computer issues :x

Anyways, no her bringing up milk wasnt a nice conversation, she point blank told her that milk was bad all pus, and their calves are starved to death, thats why they drink almond milk only. Now I dont know if she was just telling my daughter this because she wanted her friend to eat with us, and she wanted to let her know that they dont eat certain foods? But yet they eat at McDonalds and other fast food places all the time. I just dont get some people :lol:

I did talk to her and basically came to the agreement that she will keep her thoughts to herself, about animals and i will allow my daughter to go over there. I could tell she wasnt very happy about it but for now the peace has been kept.

 

[Skyrocket]

But yet they eat at McDonalds and other fast food places all the time. I just dont get some people :lol:

WHAT? :x I can't even wrap my head around that one.

I did talk to her and basically came to the agreement that she will keep her thoughts to herself, about animals and i will allow my daughter to go over there. I could tell she wasnt very happy about it but for now the peace has been kept.

At least peace is being kept, no matter how disgruntled your neighbor may be.

I mostly lurked here because I really couldn't find the words to voice what I had in mind. Also, I would be thrilled to drink "normal" milk. I stuck with the alternative cause I'm lactose intolerant and Lactaid pills don't do squat. Soy milk does my tummy well but I do quite miss real dairy. When I do stray from my lactose free products I get unbearable stomach cramps but it's usually worth it. :|