Help with identifying colors + lilac genetics

[KimitsuKouseki]

Hi everyone,
I started breeding lionhead rabbits recently and I still struggle with color genetics and color names. I've tried my best so far, but would apreciate some help because I know I haven't identified some colors right.

This is my website : http://kimitsukouseki.wixsite.com/bunbun-stories

If I've mislabeled the color of any of my adults please let me know. Also if you could help me identify the young bunnies I have started to attempt naming the colors of I'd apreciate it.

Also, Trésor is a male that carries lilac genes. I was thinking of pairing him with Eva next time she's ready for breeding. Eva is a magpie and I don't know if she could carry lilac or not. Is there a possibility?
Finally, one of my breeding attempts went horribly, the Sakura+Trésor one, please don't yell at me for it I knew Sakura should not be bred. I just wanted to try and salvage her bloodline, but I think it'd be wrong to not be honest about what happened wich is why it's explained on the site. It was a very painfull chain of event, a great loss and it was horrible so please be polite if you have comments about it.

 

[KenoshaRabbits]

Welcome!
Your website is very nice. I like the layout.

You might get a better response if you asked about specific rabbits, you weren't sure on. (As well as posting pics of the rabbits in question).

As far as your question regarding lilacs; you might want a quick primer on color genetics. I would recommend this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dz34y9u534&t=1s

Lilac is a dilute brown. The phenotype for lilac is (aa)+(bb)+(C_)+(dd)+(E_)

Your buck seems to be(aa)+(bb)+(C_)+(D_)+(E_). If you know he had lilac kits he is (Dd).

As for your magpie, it is possible she carries the recessive "d". Technically speaking magpie is a pattern not a color. From your pics it looks like she is a black magpie. If that were the case her phenotype would be (aa)(B_)(chd_)(D_)(ej_)

To get lilacs your doe would need to have a recessive "b" and "d" hiding underneath. So it is possible. And breeding these two is a good way to find out. If you only end up with black or black related colors she is (BB). If you get chocolate related colors she is (Bb). If you get some blue kits (the diluted form of black) or lilac kits then she has a recessive "d" and is (Dd).

 

[KimitsuKouseki]

Welcome!
Your website is very nice. I like the layout.

You might get a better response if you asked about specific rabbits, you weren't sure on. (As well as posting pics of the rabbits in question).

As far as your question regarding lilacs; you might want a quick primer on color genetics. I would recommend this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dz34y9u534&t=1s

Lilac is a dilute brown. The phenotype for lilac is (aa)+(bb)+(C_)+(dd)+(E_)

Your buck seems to be(aa)+(bb)+(C_)+(D_)+(E_). If you know he had lilac kits he is (Dd).

As for your magpie, it is possible she carries the recessive "d". Technically speaking magpie is a pattern not a color. From your pics it looks like she is a black magpie. If that were the case her phenotype would be (aa)(B_)(chd_)(D_)(ej_)

To get lilacs your doe would need to have a recessive "b" and "d" hiding underneath. So it is possible. And breeding these two is a good way to find out. If you only end up with black or black related colors she is (BB). If you get chocolate related colors she is (Bb). If you get some blue kits (the diluted form of black) or lilac kits then she has a recessive "d" and is (Dd).

Thanks for the quick reply. I didnt specify a rabbit cause I basically meant all of em XD. I did my best identifying the colors from research, but it's not easy for a beginner. I basically go : this is pretty, this is meh, this is ugly XD. But I'll definetly look at that video, since I dont understand the genetic phenotypes yet. One I'd like confirmation especially of though is Beckett, got her from a retiring breeder who got her from a breeder that's been in the business for 15years and they had her listed as being a chinchilla sable, but that didn't seem right to me so I listed her as a orange agouti otter insted.

Trésor has had 3 lilac babies with Sakura and 1 with BigMama so I know for sure he is Dd then.
Eva has a few desaturated brown patches on her right flank btw. They are so desaturated it's hard to tell especially on pictures but irl it's a bit more obvious.
And thanks for the compliment on my site, let me know if you have any advice on how to improve it ^^

 

[SableSteel]

Hello
I'm curious what is that game (or at least, it looks like a game) as the background of your site?
About your adult rabbits:
Hibou is actually a chestnut agouti
Aniki looks like he might be a sable chinchilla (but those are similar colors, and neither are recognized, so you could leave it as chinchilla)
Datenshi is a Vienna marked black (interestingly, he looks like he might have mosaic markings too, which is pretty uncommon)
Boulette looks like a Torted Tricolor
Codette is a Vienna marked chocolate tortoise
BigMama is a Broken cream
Clara is a Vienna marked chocolate harlequin
Beckett looks like an orange (all oranges have some level of otter markings)

Eva's babies look like a chestnut, a harlequin and two oranges
Sakura's baby is a chocolate agouti (agouti otter isn't a thing, a rabbit can either be agouti or otter - almost all agoutis have the belly markings and such of an otter)
BigMama's babies look to be a lynx (the one labeled lilac), an orange, a broken orange, a black and two tortoises. <br /><br /> __________ Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:06 pm __________ <br /><br /> About Beckett. There is no way those two rabbits pictured are her parents. Her mane and ears look completely different from their, but also you can't get an orange (or any similar color) out of a sable and a white (you could easily get a sable chinchilla though)

Maybe the real offspring of those two was a sable chinchilla, and they accidentally gave you that rabbit's pedigree or information instead. Beckett doesn't look too much like a purebred lionhead to me, to be honest.

What are you breeding for? Just pets?

 

[KimitsuKouseki]

Thank you so much SableSteel !

The game is Black desert online, I didnt rly have any image for the background and those screenshot I did worked out well for the style of the site I though. My character is Kimitsu.

Ok going through your post:
Hibou chestnut agouti, check.
As you suggested leaving Aniki as chinchilla
Datenshi Vienna marked black, check, but what do you mean by mosaic markings? is it a good thing?
Boulette torted tri check
Codette, looks more orange then chocolate to me? I looked up images of chocolate torts and they all seem much more brown then the bulk of her body. Can you explain your logic on it?
BigMama, again I looked up images of cream and they look light beige to me. BigMama is light brown for sure but is that called cream?
Clara, Vienna marked chocolate harlequin, check
Beckett orange, check, but should I leave the agouti in? cause her hair strands are thicked

Eva's babies : chestnut, check, harlequin, rly? even with so few markings? two oranges, check
Sakura's baby : chocolate agouti

(agouti otter isn't a thing, a rabbit can either be agouti or otter - almost all agoutis have the belly markings and such of an otter)

ohhhhhhhhh Ok! I didn't know, thanks a lot, sry for being so silly x.x
BigMama's babies : what's the difference between lilac and lynx? they look so similar to me, two tortoises check.

About Beckett. There is no way those two rabbits pictured are her parents. Her mane and ears look completely different from their, but also you can't get an orange (or any similar color) out of a sable and a white (you could easily get a sable chinchilla though)

I totally agree with you on this matter. I didn't get her from the original breeder, but that's the pedigree she had on em. The owner of Beckett and Lolita was an old woman who was retiring from breeding since she couldnt care for em proper anymore. All her rabbits were in terrible shape and in terrible conditions and she just gave away all of her rabbits, she gave me a beautiful blue harlequin too but that one died shortly after I got it home T.T
And yeah she doesn't look purebred to me either. I don't mean to slander Klapier-Aubin, but although he's been in the business for years he is also known to pretend some are pure even if they arent or even pass random rabbits as his own. I listed the parents anyways since it's what was given to me, but from what you said I'm taking em down, better to have a clean slate rather then a false one.

I'm breeding for pets, meat and plushies..... Let me explain, I started breeding flemish giants for meat at first, but they turned out way too big for my father and I's need. Even going down to californian or new zealand woud be too much. A 4 or 5lbs rabbit is plenny for me and my dad. But when skinning the rabbits I'm very picky, I keep the skins completly whole

those are just skins btw. Insted of cutting them up, since I kept the skins intact, I decided to make plushies out of em. Each rabbit is 1 plushie. Taxidermy like, but soft like plushies. I figure it would be great for people who can't own pets or for children. Among other things. Because I chose to make plushies, when I looked at smaller breeds I looked at those that would make a fun plush. Thus I chose lionheads. My current plan is, sell as pets, slowly improving the quality of my rabbits since I took in randoms. If some rabbits I do not want to keep do not sell, they get a 6months deadline to sell. If by then they still havent sold, then they'll become meat + plushies. I think doing it this way is as fair to the animal as can be.

 

[KenoshaRabbits]

Thanks for the quick reply. I didnt specify a rabbit cause I basically meant all of em XD.

Yea.... asking for an opinion on 25+ rabbits is a big ask. (IMHO)

Which is kinda why I suggested asking about the ones you might be confused about. <br /><br /> __________ Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:47 pm __________ <br /><br />

Insted of cutting them up, since I kept the skins intact, I decided to make plushies out of em. Each rabbit is 1 plushie. Taxidermy like, but soft like plushies. I figure it would be great for people who can't own pets or for children.

That is quite interesting. Never heard of that before.

 

[KimitsuKouseki]

Insted of cutting them up, since I kept the skins intact, I decided to make plushies out of em. Each rabbit is 1 plushie. Taxidermy like, but soft like plushies. I figure it would be great for people who can't own pets or for children.

That is quite interesting. Never heard of that before.

I haven't finished making the first plushie yet, but the first skins are tanned and I started shaping the foam. Sadly I bought some doll eyes and they are gorgeous but too big not sure what I'll do. Maybe I'll use em anyways

 

[SableSteel]

Datenshi Vienna marked black, check, but what do you mean by mosaic markings? is it a good thing?
It looks like he has a blue spot on his shoulder. Look up black blue dutch. http://rabbitcolors.info/int/en/entry/show.html?id=1003
It usually means the rabbit carries dilute, but the condition itself can't be passed to the offspring

Codette, looks more orange then chocolate to me? I looked up images of chocolate torts and they all seem much more brown then the bulk of her body. Can you explain your logic on it?
Oranges must have agouti markings (white in the ears around the eyes, the belly, etc). She doesn't look to have any agouti markings, which would mean she can't be orange, and must be self based (self being neither agouti nor otter). So she would be some shade of tortoise (that is the self based equivalent of orange), either chocolate tort or black tort (because blue and lilac tort don't have as bright of orange, their body color is cream). Since she has so little brown it is probably chocolate, because the chocolate shading blends into the orange easier and is harder to see than black shading, which makes her looks more orange.

BigMama, again I looked up images of cream and they look light beige to me. BigMama is light brown for sure but is that called cream?
She could be a lynx too, it is hard to tell them apart in some cases, but given what colors her litter are, cream was more likely. They vary a lot in shade, she looks like she would be one of the darkest creams that I have seen (and dark creams aren't very often seen in pure lionheads, so most the pictures online are of the lighter creams). There is a pretty easy way to tell cream and lynx apart though - blow into the coat (over the back, not into the wool), and look at the undercolor. Lynxes would have a pale dove-gray or pale slate gray undercolor, and creams will have a fawn, cream or white undercolor.
Also a note on looking up images of cream: dark creams are often mistakenly identified as lynxes. Even shown as lynxes. A good number of the dark cream pictures are actually only seen under pictures of lynx. http://wildriverrabbitry.weebly.com/upl ... 90.jpg?360 This is from a color guide I believe, it lists that color as a lynx, but its actually a pretty good example of a dark cream.


Beckett orange, check, but should I leave the agouti in? cause her hair strands are thicked
All oranges are agouti (if they're not agouti, they become foxes or torts), so you don't need to say agouti.

Eva's babies : chestnut, check, harlequin, rly? even with so few markings? two oranges, check
Yes, any harlequin markings makes it a harlequin. To tell its a harlequin marking and not just the shading of the tort or something, look for a spot that is not symmetrical with the other side of the rabbit, that has clean edges to it (in a tricolor) or takes on the form of a stripe (in a harlequin). I had one that looked almost exactly like it, out of two grand championed harlequins, daughter to one that won BOS at ARBA nationals. <br /><br /> __________ Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:43 pm __________ <br /><br /> BigMama's babies : what's the difference between lilac and lynx? they look so similar to me, two tortoises check.
Oops didn't see this one
Lynx is the agouti version of lilac, it has white agouti markings in the ears, so it would be agouti based

 

[KimitsuKouseki]

It looks like he has a blue spot on his shoulder.

Oh, I think I see what you mean, I'll check him in the morning to see if it's truly a mark or just his silvery mane (cause he doesn't have much mane anymore but it was silverish)

Codette ...

Since she has so little brown it is probably chocolate, because the chocolate shading blends into the orange easier and is harder to see than black shading, which makes her looks more orange.

Ah that makes sense, thank you for explaining this.

BigMama :

Lynxes would have a pale dove-gray or pale slate gray undercolor, and creams will have a fawn, cream or white undercolor.

Alright I'll check her for that tomorrow and try to take a picture.

Lynx is the agouti version of lilac

Ohhhh!!! this means Sakura was lynx and not lilac like I though then. Bless her soul. Is it as rare as lilac?

Thank you so much, I've learned more from you in these few posts then in all my research trying to identify em myself x.x
Btw ETbunny was being a clingy pest while I was typing this x.x being like "PET ME! lick, scratch" repeat. Not as bad as him walking all over my face or keyboard while I sleep like he likes to do but still x.x

__________ Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:47 am __________

Alright so I checked Datenshi and BigMama, as I suspected Datenshi's mosaic mark was only left over mane wool, it's black mostly with just a bit of silvery wool popping out. On camera the wool stands out but in person you can tell it's rly nothing much, doesn't look like a patch at all.
As for BigMama, I'd like your opinion on her

To me it looks almost even all the way down. So cream like you said? so she's a Broken dark cream? Or just keep her as a broken chocolate cause to me she's very brown, not dark brown like Trésor and Edward, but still very brown....

 

[SableSteel]

She looks broken cream

Chocolate is also a self color, so it can't have agouti markings like she looks to have. (The agouti version of chocolate, known as chocolate agouti, has a dark undercolor too)

 

[KimitsuKouseki]

Alright thanks for all the help. How rare are lynx and cream compared to lilac and chocolate btw?

 

[SableSteel]

Cream is more common than either, chocolate is bit more common than lynx or lilac, which are about the same rarity from what I've seen. It varies depending on the gene pool, but from my experience with lionhead crosses, that seems to be the case.

 

[KimitsuKouseki]

Alright, again, thank you very much I've learned a great deal from you. I'll be able to identify my colors a bit better in the future now. <br /><br /> __________ Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:23 am __________ <br /><br /> With easter finally happening I'm a bit exited at what potential females I could get from people giving away unwanted easter bunnies. I have far too many males atm so I cant take in males anymore, I'll be so sad if a good one comes along.