Help me identify these colors, please!

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I'm curious about your ch and c carriers' poor banding. Is it the band definition or the color density that is affected, or both?
Both. The kits are born black, so they are black chins and not squirrel (blue chin). You can see the white inside the ears almost at birth, as well as the white belly. By a week or so old the banding begins. But by the time they are adults, the fiber is a lovely silver shade with little banding, you'd assume they were squirrel by the light shade. Beautiful fiber to spin, but not what I'd expect.
1675176110000.png
This is at three weeks, black chin on the left, self black chin on the right. Both were all black at birth. Below is at six weeks, same kit as was on the left above (poor photo, I know, it's a closeup from a photo of the litter). Already the fiber has lightened, no banding:
1675176335838.png

When grown, there's really no banding at all:
1675176489587.png
Wonderful fiber to spin, wide band could indeed be the issue. This doe ended up with poor face furnishings (although the buck has more than he needs!), but that's a whole 'nother gene.
 
Both. The kits are born black, so they are black chins and not squirrel (blue chin). You can see the white inside the ears almost at birth, as well as the white belly. By a week or so old the banding begins. But by the time they are adults, the fiber is a lovely silver shade with little banding, you'd assume they were squirrel by the light shade. Beautiful fiber to spin, but not what I'd expect.

This is at three weeks, black chin on the left, self black chin on the right. Both were all black at birth. Below is at six weeks, same kit as was on the left above (poor photo, I know, it's a closeup from a photo of the litter). Already the fiber has lightened, no banding:

When grown, there's really no banding at all:

Wonderful fiber to spin, wide band could indeed be the issue. This doe ended up with poor face furnishings (although the buck has more than he needs!), but that's a whole 'nother gene.
Well that is the most amazing transformation I've ever seen. From black to black chin to an adult that I would have guessed was sable chin or even lilac sable chin (although I admit angoras have fooled me fairly regularly regarding their colors). Are all your heterozygous chins like that?

The second and third photos look like what my sables go through, but not that first photo! (Is there sable in the line at all?) You think this is coming from a himi or REW recessive? I am truly intrigued.

I'll send these photos to my EngAng breeder friend who is very interested in genetics to see what she thinks. She is working on developing ermines so she's dealing with chins constantly.

Just for fun, here's a really cool photo of one of her agoutis:
Agouti English Angora.jpg

I have a mystery bunny in my barn at the moment. It's out of Silverado and a self black (for sure) doe, and its extended pedigree includes blue, chocolate, chinchilla, copper, REW. There is a himi 5 generations back but that produced a REW so as far as I know there's no way for the himi to persist. There is also an otter 4 gens back, but that produced a self, so again, no way (theoretically, anyway) that it could have made it through to this bunny. No sable anywhere in sight; most of the Satin breeders up here don't mess with sable since it's such a pain with other colors.

At first we thought she might be an opal, though her blue is quite pale and my blue Satins are always very deep blue. As she continued to develop and fade, we guessed lynx. But the faint tan on her nape that she had as a younger kit has disappeared, like the rustiness on many chin kits will do, and now there's no hint of tan anywhere. It looks almost like a blue silver martin, but the blue is so pale I'm not satisfied with that, plus there's no otter available genetically, as noted above. Also, she has the very faintest of rings, of indeterminate colors; what appears as possibly fawn in the photo below is gone now. For a while I was calling her a lilac chin, but she has never had that pinkish hue that lilacs do, and at this point she doesn't have any lacing on her ears. That's still my best guess, but coming from a line of agoutis with such outstanding ring color, I'm still not happy with it.

Here she is with her lilac tort and self chin siblings at about 6 weeks;
mystery bunny - self chin - lilac tort.jpg
And these are photos of her at about 8 weeks of age, still looking lynx-y:
mystery bunny.jpgFaint Ring Color.JPG
But those faint rings have all but disappeared now at 14 weeks, similar to your angora. I'll try to get an updated photo.
Any ideas? Is she just an outstandingly lousy lynx? Or equally lousy lilac chin? :unsure:
 
Aren't genetics fascinating? What color did the mystery doe look like at birth? It is a fascinating color. I have no sable at all in my lines, so that isn't an issue. But, I have a lot of ermine, so wide band is a definite possibility. I'm trying to clean up the colors, so I've been running ermine and chin together as a separate breeding program, to keep the chin out of the main herd.
 
Aren't genetics fascinating? What color did the mystery doe look like at birth? It is a fascinating color. I have no sable at all in my lines, so that isn't an issue. But, I have a lot of ermine, so wide band is a definite possibility. I'm trying to clean up the colors, so I've been running ermine and chin together as a separate breeding program, to keep the chin out of the main herd.
Very! I’m extremely interested in hearing more about your project with ermine and chin.
 
those faint rings have all but disappeared now
It looks like the inner ring may be the tips of a second coat coming in. A fabulous thing when you live in a cold climate, as the rabbit never molts down to little pink bunny, but always has a nice full coat underneath the longer, older coat. I definitely breed for this in my angoras, as they molt four times a year, which means there will always be a mid-winter molt. As that coat grows longer it becomes less distinct in color.

Lynx rabbits typically show a lot of the yellowish fawn tones, I see none of it in your mystery rabbit. Lilac rabbits are dilute chocolates, so the hair has a pale brownish tint, called "pinkish dove gray" in angoras. I don't see either of those colors in the Satin Standard of Perfection, so I couldn't get Satin specific information there, but a closeup of the tips of your mystery rabbit's hair looks black to me, not pale brown like a lilac chin (or a lynx) would be:
1678115849911.png
I'm not really seeing much in the way of rings here, just a lessening of the intensity of the same color. Quite a conundrum, since this isn't normal in your herd.
 
project with ermine and chin.
Ermine is simply chin with the added non-extension (fawn) recessive. When you take a regular full-color chestnut agouti genetics, then switch to the more recessive chinchilla c(chd), all of the dark tones stay the same, but the yellowish (fawn) shades are removed. So the center fawn band on the agouti hairshaft is now pearly white, the golden triangle behind the ears is pearly white.

Do the same thing with a orange/fawn full-color rabbit. Non-extension recessive ee takes the middle fawn band on the agouti hairshaft, and extends it to the end of the hair, so the main color is now orange/fawn. (In angoras, the main yellow color is called 'fawn', the dilute shade is 'cream', and the rufus version is 'red; in other breeds the main color is called 'orange', the dilute shade 'fawn', and the rufus is still 'red'.) Chinchilla turns off the pheomelanin yellow pigment factories, so it can't put yellow where it would go on a orange/fawn/cream/red rabbit. Yellow is replaced with creamy white, so an ermine rabbit from good smut-free orange lines just looks like an albino REW with dark eyes. Since chin does not affect the dark eumelanin pigment factories, any dark smut still shows up as the dark hairs on the ermine's face/ears/tail. Extreme smut may even show up as dark ticking on the body, although I don't have that. I use my ermine fiber like any other Red-eyed-white fiber, just be careful not to harvest tinted tail fiber along with the white! (I have a white hat with a streak of gray in it from accidental inclusion of tinted tail fiber, oops!)

However, I have discovered what may be a side-effect of crossing ermine with the chin--orange/fawn is a wide-band color, that's the gene that pushes all the dark tips completely off the agouti hairshaft, eliminating ticking. Nice for oranges, as ee rabbits without wide-band can be very smutty, lots of dark tips to the fiber. But, wide band can show up in non-orange rabbits as well. Wide-band chestnut agouti have a lot of extra orange to their coat. I think my chins may be suffering from the same issue, as there is virtually no banding left in my chins, and the fiber color is quite pale. I always thought that I must have started with lilac and blue chins, until I realized they were born jet black and dark chocolate brown, and I have not had a blue or lilac kit born in the last thirty years (I did have some marvelous super dark blues forty years ago, but that's a different story.)

So, I've been using ermines for my white wool, eliminating the need for the blue-eyed and red-eyed white albinos. But, I'll have to decide whether to continue or not. Since I'm not showing, the poor ring definition may not be an issue, but I do try to breed to standard for colors that are showable (ermines are not in angoras).

Having a viable breeding program when you don't outcross all the time, requires a number of bucks and does. So, each separate color program takes a considerable amount of space, so eliminating unnecessary programs is a bonus. I don't want my harlequins in the general herd, so that is separate; and I don't want chin in the regular herd, so that is separate (both harlequin and chin can mess with the kit's color, even if it's just as a single recessive to a more dominant color pattern.) Wide-band may be messing with some things, I'll have to consider that. Anyone out there with wide-band experience that can help me get a handle on its effects?
 
Ermine is simply chin with the added non-extension (fawn) recessive. When you take a regular full-color chestnut agouti genetics, then switch to the more recessive chinchilla c(chd), all of the dark tones stay the same, but the yellowish (fawn) shades are removed. So the center fawn band on the agouti hairshaft is now pearly white, the golden triangle behind the ears is pearly white.

Do the same thing with a orange/fawn full-color rabbit. Non-extension recessive ee takes the middle fawn band on the agouti hairshaft, and extends it to the end of the hair, so the main color is now orange/fawn. (In angoras, the main yellow color is called 'fawn', the dilute shade is 'cream', and the rufus version is 'red; in other breeds the main color is called 'orange', the dilute shade 'fawn', and the rufus is still 'red'.) Chinchilla turns off the pheomelanin yellow pigment factories, so it can't put yellow where it would go on a orange/fawn/cream/red rabbit. Yellow is replaced with creamy white, so an ermine rabbit from good smut-free orange lines just looks like an albino REW with dark eyes. Since chin does not affect the dark eumelanin pigment factories, any dark smut still shows up as the dark hairs on the ermine's face/ears/tail. Extreme smut may even show up as dark ticking on the body, although I don't have that. I use my ermine fiber like any other Red-eyed-white fiber, just be careful not to harvest tinted tail fiber along with the white! (I have a white hat with a streak of gray in it from accidental inclusion of tinted tail fiber, oops!)

However, I have discovered what may be a side-effect of crossing ermine with the chin--orange/fawn is a wide-band color, that's the gene that pushes all the dark tips completely off the agouti hairshaft, eliminating ticking. Nice for oranges, as ee rabbits without wide-band can be very smutty, lots of dark tips to the fiber. But, wide band can show up in non-orange rabbits as well. Wide-band chestnut agouti have a lot of extra orange to their coat. I think my chins may be suffering from the same issue, as there is virtually no banding left in my chins, and the fiber color is quite pale. I always thought that I must have started with lilac and blue chins, until I realized they were born jet black and dark chocolate brown, and I have not had a blue or lilac kit born in the last thirty years (I did have some marvelous super dark blues forty years ago, but that's a different story.)

So, I've been using ermines for my white wool, eliminating the need for the blue-eyed and red-eyed white albinos. But, I'll have to decide whether to continue or not. Since I'm not showing, the poor ring definition may not be an issue, but I do try to breed to standard for colors that are showable (ermines are not in angoras).

Having a viable breeding program when you don't outcross all the time, requires a number of bucks and does. So, each separate color program takes a considerable amount of space, so eliminating unnecessary programs is a bonus. I don't want my harlequins in the general herd, so that is separate; and I don't want chin in the regular herd, so that is separate (both harlequin and chin can mess with the kit's color, even if it's just as a single recessive to a more dominant color pattern.) Wide-band may be messing with some things, I'll have to consider that. Anyone out there with wide-band experience that can help me get a handle on its effects?
Thanks so much ! This whole thread has been incredibly helpful in assisting me in wrapping my brain around the C locus. Wideband is on the horizon apparently!

I was actually making it more complicated than necessary and somehow had the e locus involved. There’s quite a bit of Lyme damage to my brain and cns so learning takes longer than it used to and I have to be much more deliberate about it. Really thankful for all of the knowledge and patience here!
 
omehow had the e locus involved
Yes, the 'e' locus is the main component other than the chinchilla gene. The recessive non-extension (fawn) gene ee is what makes the middle agouti band (orange color) go to the end of the hairshaft. Chin then removes all orange from the hairshaft, leaving just the pearly white. Wideband doubles the width of the middle band, pushing off the dark tips. The two work hand in hand.

According to Oregon State University at Understanding the genetics behind rabbit coat colors: Part 2 — coat color genes "The E gene, scientifically known as the MC1R (melanocortin 1 receptor) gene, controls the extension of dark pigment. . ." All the options on the E gene determine how the dark color extends along the hairshaft, which is why it is called E for Extension. Dominant black (which is quite rare) extends to the end like a self black, steel extends almost to the end with the remnants of the middle fawn band clear out on the tips. Normal extension would be our normal colors like chestnut agouti. Harlequin is next, with the dark color stuck in patches on the skin instead of bands on the hairshaft. The last one is the most recessive, non-extension, where the dark just plain skips the main body hair.

According to Locus W - Wide Band | rabbit-gentics
"The wideband gene is not discussed often and when it is, it is often confused with the nonextension gene (e), probably because it has a similar effect and the two are usually ‘used’ together. The wideband gene has two alleles. W is dominant, so Ww and WW both produce the normal colors. The ww genotype doubles the width of the ‘red’ bands in agouti rabbits.

The wideband allele is most common in non-extension rabbits (reds - A-eeww and torts aaeeww), where it helps to reduce smut and intensify the red color. It is also common in coppers - along with high rufus factor it helps to distinguish the copper from the chestnut agouti.

In chinchilla rabbits (A-chd-ww), the wideband gene doubles the width of the silver-white bands, resulting in rabbits that are lighter and less even than normal. In other agouti rabbits (A---ww) the bands are also wider and the red shade may be more intense as well. In general, wideband is accepted but not preferred in the chinchilla and other agoutis. Since the selfs and tans don’t have bands, the wideband effect is not seen, and is just carried."

According to Minifluffs Caviary at Rabbit Color Genetics Chart
"Technically, the wideband gene is a recessive modifier - ww is used in combination with agouti (A-) and non-extension (ee). So The wideband modifier genotype ww does two things, it lightens the undercolor and doubles the width of the midband. The latter may seem to be redundant as the ee genotype should remove all eumelanin, but wideband group colors with a stray Ww or WW are invariably 'smutty' with eumelanin tipping on the haunches and ears and usually have a grayish tint to the undercolor."

So, if this information is correct, wide band would explain both the excessively light fiber on my chins, and the pale (white) undercolors I am dealing with. All my chestnut agoutis are the "wild gray" pattern, a mostly gray pattern with little of the fawn band, and they have white undercolor instead of the standard blue. I'd heard once that wild gray was a wide band pattern, although there must be another modifier because all the wide band chestnuts I've seen had an extra wide fawn band, not extra gray. Such fascinating mysteries.

Since I'm breeding mostly for fiber quality, progress on the colors has been slow.
 
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It looks like the inner ring may be the tips of a second coat coming in. A fabulous thing when you live in a cold climate, as the rabbit never molts down to little pink bunny, but always has a nice full coat underneath the longer, older coat. I definitely breed for this in my angoras, as they molt four times a year, which means there will always be a mid-winter molt. As that coat grows longer it becomes less distinct in color.

Lynx rabbits typically show a lot of the yellowish fawn tones, I see none of it in your mystery rabbit. Lilac rabbits are dilute chocolates, so the hair has a pale brownish tint, called "pinkish dove gray" in angoras. I don't see either of those colors in the Satin Standard of Perfection, so I couldn't get Satin specific information there, but a closeup of the tips of your mystery rabbit's hair looks black to me, not pale brown like a lilac chin (or a lynx) would be:
I've decidedat this point that she is a squirrel, just a kind of lousy one. At first we assumed it was an opal since the bunny had a definite tan cast in its nape triangle, and the original rings did have a tan cast to them. Maybe it doesn't show on your screen, but by 8 weeks or so, the tan had faded to what was a distinct yellowish/pinkish tinge to the center band, which is why I began considering lilac, though the surface color seemed too blue in general:
Inked Faint Ring Color.jpg

As she has gotten older, the yellow tinge has faded even more to where now I can only just make it out. Perhaps it is related to the brownback characteristic so many of my chins have as juniors.

I'm not really seeing much in the way of rings here, just a lessening of the intensity of the same color. Quite a conundrum, since this isn't normal in your herd.
Squirrel would certainly make sense given her genetic background. There are definite rings, though I've never seen such faint color and definition in any of my agoutis, even the lynx. Here she is now at 5 months (I've held onto her simply to try to figure out what she is!):
Squirrel rings 3-2023a.JPGSquirrel rings 3-2023b.JPG

From the side she looks like a marten, but I know there is no otter in this line. The top view photo shows her surface color looking more like a squirrel, but in real life the ticking that shows up in this photo is almost unnoticeable. Her underside markings are typical chin or marten, and her ears have the blue lacing of a squirrel although again, the color is so much lighter than any of my typical blues.
Squirrel 3-2023.JPG Squirrel top view.JPG
Squirrel underside.JPG
 
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Yes, the 'e' locus is the main component other than the chinchilla gene. The recessive non-extension (fawn) gene ee is what makes the middle agouti band (orange color) go to the end of the hairshaft. Chin then removes all orange from the hairshaft, leaving just the pearly white. Wideband doubles the width of the middle band, pushing off the dark tips. The two work hand in hand.

According to Oregon State University at Understanding the genetics behind rabbit coat colors: Part 2 — coat color genes "The E gene, scientifically known as the MC1R (melanocortin 1 receptor) gene, controls the extension of dark pigment. . ." All the options on the E gene determine how the dark color extends along the hairshaft, which is why it is called E for Extension. Dominant black (which is quite rare) extends to the end like a self black, steel extends almost to the end with the remnants of the middle fawn band clear out on the tips. Normal extension would be our normal colors like chestnut agouti. Harlequin is next, with the dark color stuck in patches on the skin instead of bands on the hairshaft. The last one is the most recessive, non-extension, where the dark just plain skips the main body hair.

According to Locus W - Wide Band | rabbit-gentics
"The wideband gene is not discussed often and when it is, it is often confused with the nonextension gene (e), probably because it has a similar effect and the two are usually ‘used’ together. The wideband gene has two alleles. W is dominant, so Ww and WW both produce the normal colors. The ww genotype doubles the width of the ‘red’ bands in agouti rabbits.

The wideband allele is most common in non-extension rabbits (reds - A-eeww and torts aaeeww), where it helps to reduce smut and intensify the red color. It is also common in coppers - along with high rufus factor it helps to distinguish the copper from the chestnut agouti.

In chinchilla rabbits (A-chd-ww), the wideband gene doubles the width of the silver-white bands, resulting in rabbits that are lighter and less even than normal. In other agouti rabbits (A---ww) the bands are also wider and the red shade may be more intense as well. In general, wideband is accepted but not preferred in the chinchilla and other agoutis. Since the selfs and tans don’t have bands, the wideband effect is not seen, and is just carried."

According to Minifluffs Caviary at Rabbit Color Genetics Chart
"Technically, the wideband gene is a recessive modifier - ww is used in combination with agouti (A-) and non-extension (ee). So The wideband modifier genotype ww does two things, it lightens the undercolor and doubles the width of the midband. The latter may seem to be redundant as the ee genotype should remove all eumelanin, but wideband group colors with a stray Ww or WW are invariably 'smutty' with eumelanin tipping on the haunches and ears and usually have a grayish tint to the undercolor."

So, if this information is correct, wide band would explain both the excessively light fiber on my chins, and the pale (white) undercolors I am dealing with. All my chestnut agoutis are the "wild gray" pattern, a mostly gray pattern with little of the fawn band, and they have white undercolor instead of the standard blue. I'd heard once that wild gray was a wide band pattern, although there must be another modifier because all the wide band chestnuts I've seen had an extra wide fawn band, not extra gray. Such fascinating mysteries.

Since I'm breeding mostly for fiber quality, progress on the colors has been slow.
Yes, extremely fascinating! Many thanks for your very detailed reply. It’s all starting to make sense. What a wonderfully informative thread this is!
 
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