Help and advice, please..

[Zab]

Ok.. I need your help.

The only alfalfa/lucerne I can find has 10% molasses in it. I can't find any lower even though I don't want to feed sugar if I can help it.

The type I'm thinking of now is not only lucerne, it's 70% lucerne, 10% molasses (of which 43% is sugar), 20% oat (the plant not the seed) and ''dark greens''.
I don't have the nutritients list but I remember that the raw protein was 12,5%. Which means the raw protein that the horse (since it's horse food) will get out of the food, the general protein count was higher but I don't remember how much. I think 15% or so. I think it had a list with Ca and P and all that, but since those numbers tell me nothing I couldn't memorize it.

There are also lucernes/alfalfa which is only alfalfa + 10% molasses. They seem to have the same protein count but the seller of this last one was nicer And it was chheaper. And I like the variety in it if it contains as much protein as the others.. and I got a free, small ''test'' bag so I'm currently testing if my rabbits will eat it..

First question: Is this good enough despite molasses?
Second question: How much should I give of it?

My regular hay is quite high in both mineral and protein, I don't remember the exact numbers since it was analysed a while ago, but I remember it has good values for horses and is supposed to be a fairly rich grass hay. They will get unlimited access to this hay no matter what else I feed.

I have more or less free, crushed barley to feed them.
I can buy BOSS.. at least at the moment.
Rolled oats would be fairly expencive since I only get it in a regular store, but I can give it once in a while if you think it's necessary. Regular oats would be worse since I'd have to bulk and they tend to go bad quickly.
I'd get either pelleted minerals or a mineral block. Does a mineral block for sheep or cattle work? I know sheep can eat some strange things without getting ill..

Question 3: Can you help me make a food plan with this? Is there something else I really would need? How much of everything?
It's for meat rabbits; the SP is a medium sized breed (small for being a meatbreed) which is bred to survive well on whatever they get. There's 3 of them, one new zealand red and one french lop. And in the future their kits.

ATM I have lots of pellets left to use, should I be cautious with feeding a bit alfalfa-mix to them as well? I've read something about calcium levels being bad if both are fed. I'm mixing the pellets with barley right now, but perhaps it's better to feed pellets only untill it's time to gently switch them over to a new feed?

I want to feed more natural, but expences is a thing to count with. The alfalfa-mix and the pellets are about the same price per kilo (alfalfa is a tad cheaper actually) but then.. the pellets are way heavier. A handful of alfalfa mix is like a quarter of the weight of a handful of pellets.. question is; how much will they need? Barley is cheap.. BOSS would be pretty expencive but then again - I don't think I'm supposed to feed a lot of it? Oats is the real problem, if they need it on a daily basis. Minerals would be expencive too, but that's not the main feed either.

Help? :doc:

Question 4: :respect: <--- why is that sign in swedish?

 

[3mina]

Rabbits excrete excess calcium so the calcium levels aren't as worrisome as they could be. Ca = calcium P = phosphorus.
Rabbits have a similar digestive system to horses so you have a large portion of the knowledge you're looking for already
That sign is in Swedish cause over here that's a misspelling

 

[Zab]

A lot of people here are real worried about the calcium and kidney issues, so I'm not quite sure what to think, actually But I won't bee too worried about it then, just a bit careful.
I wrote Ca and P because I knew their meaning but not the proper english spelling of the actual words :lol: But I have no idea what to look for in the numbers, what's good, what's bad etc, so I can't memorize it properly. I need to know ''what does it mean?" to help me reember.. or at least I'd know ''Ca looks good" etc..
heh, well I can't make a perfect feed plan for horses either :lol: But it is good to know they're similiar Never wrong to have a basic understaning even if I don't know the proper ratio between everything or such.

Anyhow.. examples on how to make a good feed plan with what I've got (and if I need to get more) would be really helpful.. Is there some vitamin or something I need to supplement?
I'll probably go back to the old fashioned swedish country side breeds (SP, Gotlander, mellerud etc) since they're made to thrive on hay and water more or less.. I'm afraid the Flop and NZR mixes will develope porly, especially the younglings, without pellet or grain.. Oh well. I'll see that.

But would the hay, alfalfa-mix and water be a good base? Just adding energy (Boss, grain..) if needed, and perhaps a mineral block?

"That sign is in Swedish cause over here that's a misspelling " Omg, you're saying swedes spell bad?! :O Jk I figured that, but it's funny how a misspelling in one language just makes it correct in another

 

[3mina]

There's a sticky in the natural feed section 'Trinity Oaks Grain Mix' or something like that that gives a recipe for a grain feed. I'm of very limited help on this subject since I feed pellets. With a grain mix diet the rabbits will need a salt/mineral block, if you use one for your horses just break a chunk off for the rabbits.
I don't think your Flop or NZs will do badly on what you give them, just keep in mind that any rabbit will grow a bit slower on grain rather than pellets since pellets were designed for optimizing growth and weight gain. Rabbits were forage fed until quite recently so don't sweat a "perfect" diet for them, balance over time is what I'd strive for. That's how I feed my raw fed dogs and if I was feeding my rabbits forage that's how I'd work them as well.

 

[Zab]

I've been looking at that thread and got the impression they need a billion types of grain.. but it was a while ago, I'll go back and read it more carefully

I would like to not feed grain at all except to help with weight and extra energy when needed.. read around and SP and gotlanders are supposed to not need anything but grass hay, it's their bigthing in the meat world and is recommended by the breeding association and breeding plans.. with alfalfa I'm already giving them more than that-..hmm..

I suppose hat I need to know to be able to make a decision is - what is it in the grain the rabbits need, that they won't get from hay and alfalfa? Once I understand and know that, I can decide wether they need grain on a daily basis or just to bump the weight if they seem to need something extra.. I'll read the thread again and see if I find my answer there It's always nice to bounce ideas with people too though

Yeah, over time is good. But then you need to know what they may be missing in the daily diet I feed the dogs liver once in a while, bhut if I didn't know that the meat only won't have enough of vitamin A, I might miss the liver and they'd get sick over time..

 

[Dood]

This is the Guaranteed Analysis of Manna Pro Grow for nursing does and weaned kits.

Crude Protein Min 18.00 %
Crude Fat Min 2.50 %
Crude Fiber Min 16.00 %
Crude Fiber Max 21.00 %
Calcium Min 0.75 %
Calcium Max 1.25 %
Phosphorus Min 0.50 %
Salt Min 0.25 %
Salt Max 0.75 %
Vitamin A Min 3,000 IU/lb

And here are the basic ingredients

Dehydrated alfalfa meal, wheat middlings, soybean hulls, soybean meal, feeding oatmeal, cane molasses, vegetable oil, brewers dried yeast,

Your protein still seems a bit low for optimum growth but other than that I think you have your bases covered. Soybean meal is 35% protein and is added to boost the levels. Bucks and non nursing does only need about 15% protein.

How much Calcium and Phosphorus is in a feed is not as important as the ratio which should be 2:1

If there is too much phosphorus ( as is normally the case) it can leach calcium out of the animals bones. If you are worried you can let your rabbits self medicate by giving them large boiled bones and antlers to gnaw on.

These numbers are for optimum growth, rabbits can and do survive on much less. If your are missing an element then it just means it will take a bit longer for your kits to reach 5 pounds, or you cannot breed back your does after kindling but must give them some time to recuperate. These numbers don't take into account the supplemental feeding of kitchen and garden scraps either.

Keep an eye on your stock, modify their feed as needed and don't sweat about it too much.

 

[Zab]

Thank you!

I'm thinking of adding potato-protein since I have a thing against soy and I can get potatoe protein. Do you think that could be okay?

 

[Dood]

We don't use potato protein very much over here, but I know in poultry and calves it was found to be less digestible, they did not grow was well as animals on soy and it caused more intestinal upset and diarrhea.

If you want to try it with your rabbits, start in small amounts and I would not mix it with anything but put it in a separate bowl so they can decide if they want to eat it or not and go from there.

 

[Zab]

I always start slow in horses, soy can cause severe problems which potato protein seem not to do...

 

[Frecs]

Over here, soy is a concern because almost all soybean crops in the US are GMO. I don't want that in my body and I don't want to feed it to my animals. That's one reason I am moving away from commercial feeds for my rabbits and chickens.

 

[Zab]

Ok, I've bought BOSS and alfalfa. Not the mixed one, I realized the slightly more expencive one was dryer wich means it won't mold and there's more of it.
I've bought a mineral saltblock too. I'm slowly turning Kori, Madra and Fläder over on this (+ barley and hay). I figure Kummin and Kyndel should stay on their regular diet untill kindling.

The rest of the pellets I got with Fläder and Madra will be given to my horse - Crow - a handful a day. Perhaps he'll get some nutrition out of it. I don't like Fläder and Madras poop, too black, soft and deformed.. I hope the new diet will be better for them.<br /><br />__________ Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:04 am __________<br /><br />I didn't get any additional protein, I figure BOSS and alfalfa will have to do.

As for soy.. it's nt even a plant made for consumption.. it's toxic in its natural state. Things like that makes me want to avoid it. GMO doesn't help.

 

[Dood]

As for soy.. it's nt even a plant made for consumption.. it's toxic in its natural state.

That is a pretty inflammitory statement. Lets not give people the wrong idea.

Anything can be toxic in large amounts including water and oxygen.

There are several foods that are just as 'toxic' as soybeans in their raw form including kidney beans, lima beans, cassava, taro and chocolate.

The trypsin inhibitors in soybeans will eventually kill you by protein starvation but you need to eat alot of them over several weeks which you are not likely to do since you will also experience vomiting and diarrhea. And ruminants can eat raw soybeans with few negative effects as their stomach bacteria are immune to the toxins.

I would not rule out a food just because it needs to be cooked - I prefer my steak medium rare and not raw.

 

[Zab]

My problem with toxic in soy are that when being a vegetarian, they put it in everything and you're supposed to eat tons of it (as if it was rice or potato or corn or something else which a larger group of humans has had as a base feed for a long time and which are petty safe.. there's as far as I've learnt no culture or group that has soy as a base food except western vegetarians) since it's one of the very few plants with fullworthy protein (instead of mixing different types of plants to get all the protein parts). That's bugging me, that it's becoming a base food. Lima beans and kidney beans or chocolate isn't a base food of that sort. You can eat some of it, or even a lot, but it's what you base your diet on.

I've eaten roasted soybeans and I'm not dead, but I get annoyed when everything contains soy. Oh and yeah, not a vegetarian anymore so I guess it doesn't concern me, but I don't like it. Just like I don't like that they've started to load dog foods with peas - which also are toxic to a degree - because people are getting wary of the grains.. (how about trying to feed dogs and cats with..I dunno.. meat?)

Soy, peas, beans are simlply not base feeds. If anything they're supplements or additions to basic food and may have their place as such. Give me an animal with soy as a primary food (by nature) and I'll gladly feed that animal soy.

 

[Dood]

My problem with toxic in soy are that when being a vegetarian, they put it in everything and you're supposed to eat tons of it

What has that got to do with animal feeds? It is put in everything because it is the cheapest protein source we have, is readily available and very versatile. Tofu burgers are big sellers, but I have never heard of a lima bean burger and personally would not want to try one.

That's bugging me, that it's becoming a base food. Lima beans and kidney beans or chocolate isn't a base food of that sort.

Before soybeans became available we had fields and fields of other legumes like vetch, peas, and peanuts that were used as the protein source for livestock and as their 'base food', none of them had the high protein levels of soybeans so you needed to grow twice as much to get the same amount of protein which is not a very good use of limited land resources.

Soy, peas, beans are simlply not base feeds. If anything they're supplements or additions to basic food and may have their place as such. Give me an animal with soy as a primary food (by nature) and I'll gladly feed that animal soy.

But soy is NOT the base feed in rabbit food, alfalfa is (another legume), soybean meal is the fourth ingredient, it is COOKED and detoxified and is used in small quantities to add the extra 2 to 4% protein that nursing mothers and growing kits need in their diets to maximize production.At 40% protein a little goes a long way to increase protein levels (soy hulls lack the toxins and are more of a fiber source than protein)


Wild/feral pigeons primary food over winter in North America is soybeans, and trust me we do not have pigeons dropping out of the sky from poisoning, although many wish we did. Soybeans are also a huge part of all of North American wildlife's diet and many species have developed resistance to the toxins found in raw soybeans.


I dont understand why everyone is so anti soybean, it is a miracle crop and has made cheap protien available to millions of people who cannot get meat for one reason or another. In many parts of the world protein deficiency diseases like Kwashiorkor and Marasmus are a thing of the past all due to soybeans.


The price of chicken, pork, milk, eggs, cheese and yogurt would all be much higher if we couldn't give these animals soybean protein as it would take much longer to get them to market weight and cut down on production and other protein sources are much more expensive to grow.

 

[Zab]

It's my personal feelings for soy and they are influenced by my experiencs in peopes food as well. And since it's not a natural food for rabbits, I rather avoid it for them too.

I don't have pidgeons, I have horses and rabbits. 2 of my 3 horses got sick when they got soy based protein food - for horses. Despite that I turned them over to it very slowly and was far from the maxiumum daily dose.

I do not like soy. That is my personal opinion. I have not said ''you should not feed your animals/yourself with soy" I've only stated that I don't like it. I am not convinced that it's a good food for livestock or people or any miracle crop of any sort. I'm not convinced that a quickly reached slaughter weight equals health either and wouldn't mind buying more expencive meat if it meant better meat and better life for the animals (which it doesn't in my area, no matter if there's soy or not involved).
This is my opinions and I will go with them when I decide what I want to feed my animals or myself, just like I'll go with my opinions on inbreeding. You do whatever you feel is right.

 

[Dood]

I dont care what your personal opinions are, that is your right, but you said soy is toxic with no further explanation and I wanted to make sure people didnt freak out and assume the worst of this VERY SAFE product.

You dont want to use it fine, but dont tell me its toxic when it isnt.

 

[ollitos]

Actually, Zab did explain.

At this point, it's a dead horse being beaten

 

[Zab]

Dood: Thank you for clearing the hows about the toxic part up then.

 

[UK-backyardbunnies]

Zab- I'm with you on the soy
Personally I think that natural foods can be so variable that nutrition calculations can only be approximate - plus in a colony setting I'd never know who ate how many grams of which food - so I'm going for a wide variety of forage, herbs and roots, and as long as the bunnies are healthy and growing then "it'll do".
My own diet has the same vagueness though

 

[Zab]

Well, I'm ot counting the straw or such either, but it's good to know if there's something missing big time in their diet