Gold-tipped blue steel or opal?

[JessiL]

Hi, color gurus!

I have a rabbit who I suspect is a gold(fawn)-tipped blue steel, but I want to make sure she actually isn't an opal. Steels are really useful for nice dark blues, but an opal would be less useful.

Breed is American, she is 11 weeks old. Her father is blue, a known steel carrier, aa B_ Cc dd Es_ (could actually be EsEs, have not yet had an agouti from him), mother is chestnut, Aa B_ Cc Dd EE. So, either opal or blue steel is possible, if the sire isn't double Es.

Sorry I couldn't get a good ring color photo, didn't have any help to hold here and she's good and adventurous.









Thanks in advance for your opinions.

 

[Peach]

Looks like a blue gold steel

 

[Kayla@LWR]

She is very beautiful! To me it would be the gold-steel, not opal. She isn't show quality because of the color. But I do not know your plans for her. I breed American (blues) rabbits so I know a bit about my breed but not a lot! I hope this helps you in anyway!

 

[Dood]

I'd say steel as an opal would not have such a dark belly (unless she is also wideband )

 

[Zass]

It's a steel,
it's missing eye rings too, and all the agouti marks, and the cream color on the paws opals usually have


Here are some opals for comparison, they have white bellies trimmed with cream color too.

[album]2194[/album]
[album]2177[/album]
[album]2101[/album]

I don't really know what an opal or agouti with wideband would look like.
I know it changes the feet and belly color, but does it mess with eye circles?
Are there any websites with those posted?

 

[JessiL]

Thanks for the feedback. I was pretty sure she was a steel, but she had just enough markings (mostly fawn around nape and ears, pale underside of tail) to make me doubtful. This pairing produces some really obvious gold-tipped black steels, and others that seem much closer to chestnut, and I have no idea why.

Kayla, this discussion on the American rabbit breeders yahoo group made me want to save a steel from that cross rather than a blue. The text was attributed to a "Petra" - I don't know who that is. But my subsequent research backed up her claims as to the effect of steel genes on color depth in aa rabbits.

"Solid Skins" & Pink Bellies" . :" Look at the skin color before the fur grows in. "

"A- gene is a hot pink belly (skin color.)"

"aa- is a solid skin (color)"

"With Americans we have both of these A genes. (aa ) & (A_) We also have the Extension dark (Ed) gene in E locus in some Americans. So unless the rabbit is born an Ed gene. All other E genes possible, will have a coat pattern, if the rabbit is born with the dominate A gene. (Agouti (E), Steel (Es)

Ed gene is the only way the dominant ( A )gene can be a solid dark blue. The ultimate dark blue color.

If no Ed gene rabbits are present? Work with the steels. It's all about matching up the same color genes. Breed the solid skin (aa) rabbits to the steels. Then when the A gene is bred out. Keep it going; only with (aa) gene steels. Then only solid dark blue colors can be born.

While it is a common saying to breed blue to blue, & white to white. The blues need work to be a consistent dark blue litter.
I do see people getting better results if they breed (aa gene X aa gene) Such as with the steels. Breed out the dominant A gene. The result is the lovely dark blues & no coat patterns. (Ticking).

The lower color genes in E locus, makes for a light blue. Such as the normal E gene. When it comes to making the darkest blue color. A steel is better than the agouti. Just breed out the dominant A gene for the darkest blues. I find this really amazing to watch non show color rabbits produce excellent show colors.

A Gold Tipped (GT) steel or Agouti color, is a full color gene in C locus genes. Where a Silver Tipped (ST) steel & Chinchilla color is not. This also plays a role in the darkness of a blue. The full color gene (C) , is going to contribute to a dark blue color. The (ch) chin gene makes the blue look light & washed out .

If the chin genes are present in the blue rabbits? Use them in breeding, turning into white color lineage.. To get rid of the chin genes. Once the white rabbit is born. The chin gene is fully bred out of that rabbit. Use the white (REW) to get rid of the chin genes. This is where breeding blue to whites works to one's advantage.

Each set of genes has a order of dominance. For example a white rabbit can not produce a chin color. Not if it is a true REW. The gene is not there in the white rabbit. If a chin gene was there?Then the rabbit would not be (REW) white in color. It would be a chinchilla color instead.

Same thing for the recessive (aa). Breeding 2 selfs (aa) is going to work. These rabbits can not produce the dominant (A). Therefore the coat patterns are not possible such as steel & agouti. Only a solid blue color is possible."

"A good example of a breed with all self (aa) genes is the Silver Fox. They are born a solid color every time, as a result of the entire breed only having recessive (aa) genes to offer. The Silver Fox has all the same mix of other genes, as the American does. Plus the Silvering gene. Yet every nest box shows only solid color fur in the babies. Until they silver with age."

 

[Zass]

I think this is a description of someone's plan to get the murky genes out of white American lines?

I do see people getting better results if they breed (aa gene X aa gene) Such as with the steels. Breed out the dominant A gene. The result is the lovely dark blues & no coat patterns. (Ticking).

My guess is the only way steels are showing up in blue Americans is from whites. Since the blues I've seen have bred like proper aa selfs.

The end result is going to be breeding steel genes into blue American lines.
You could end up with visual blues that breed like a genetic agoutis,
and perhaps eventually throw very inconsistent rabbits, like the SF, which seem to be loaded with steel.

Does Ed actually exist, or is it just Es with a lot of modifiers?

And if it exists, is this really rare? Cause if many SF and NZ lines are carrying it...it certainly would explain a lot... I've seen many claiming it was just two copies of steel (EsEs) that caused the effect, and I can say from experience that is NOT ALWAYS THE CASE.
You can get steels that look like selfs from rabbits carrying just one copy of the Es (or perhaps Ed?) gene.

And another question, does a steel have a darker undercoat than a proper aa self? Cause if so...it would make perfect sense why that color would have been selected for.

But if it is Ed that I'm dealing with, it doesn't seem to effect the presence of white hairs at all...sorry to say.

And...to further complicate things, my SF seem to be super steels, or at least, I haven't yet gotten my hands on one that I can prove isn't a super steel, despite working with as many unrelated lines as I've been able to get my hands on.

 

[JessiL]

Remind me what a "super steel" is again?

And from what I can tell, as long as you have only aa rabbits to work with, having self steel isn't a problem, and if you believe some folks, advantageous if you want deep dark blue.

Yeah, I don't know if Ed is a real thing or not. If it is, and if it's in my rabbits, it also does not appear to help with preventing white hairs. Lots of that and white toenails in Americans... Some people think breeding in blacks helps with the white hairs. I think they are mistaken, and that the only "advantage" to using blacks is that it is easier to see (and avoid) the white hairs and nails!

 

[Zass]

Remind me what a "super steel" is again?

Just a rabbit who carries two copies of the steel gene. EsEs

the problem is that an aa and Aa an AA can all look identical with one or two copies of steel. I just don't know if it's Ed I'm dealing with or Es with heavy modifiers.

Having steel in there doesn't hurt anything...but it can be really frustrating.

That's why most people insist never to breed steel into self colored rabbits. Especially in breeds that only come in self colors, since once it's in there, there is absolutely no way to get it back out.

 

[Dood]

And from what I can tell, as long as you have only aa rabbits to work with, having self steel isn't a problem, and if you believe some folks, advantageous if you want deep dark blue.

true, except REW is not neccesarily self based

What could happen is that when people cross their blues and whites they could get opal with two steel genes (super steel) but not realize it because they "look" like selfs but are actually agouti !

If bred to a self blue that carries two steel, any agouti kits will continue to look self until they are bred to a self who lacks the steel gene, then they get opals and wonder what the heck happened :shrug: