Found an article on breeding rabbits!!!

[Kyle@theWintertime]

LOL, and it's why nobody should breed 'em. It's being passed around some rabbit-breeder-themed FB groups for a chuckle...but really, the sobering thought is that the AR people actually believe this.

Here's the article: http://www.rabbit.org/adoption/why-not-to-breed.html

Here's my thoughts on some specifics within the article:

People who get rabbits as companions tend to forget that nature created rabbits as a prey species

Oddly enough, NONE of the breeders I know seem to have this problem. I'm pretty sure we're all well aware of our rabbits' instincts as a prey animal and act/treat them accordingly.

A rabbit differs from other mammals in that the female ovulates after being mounted by a male. This is called induced ovulation.

..........except MANY mammals are induced ovulators. True, they are not the MAJORITY, but there are other mammals out there!!! A quick google search, and I'm swamped with 'em. Did you know CAMELS are induced ovulators too????

This also means that after a rabbit has given birth, if the male is still present, she can and most likely will become pregnant within 24 hours of giving birth. Just imagine how you would feel if you had a baby and within 24 hours you were pregnant again!

Uhm. Okay it's technically possible but even when I had a colony setup where the buck and does lived together at all times, there was usually a few weeks delay between delivering a litter and being pregnant. That, or if they DID get pregnant right after birth, they were carrying the new litter for like 55 days.

If you choose to allow your rabbit to breed anyway, what do you do with the surviving 4 to 12 babies that she had?

My answer is this smiley: :dinner:

Are you prepared to find good, loving homes for all of them. and if you don't, are you willing to care for them Including spay and neuter them) for the next 8-10 years?

LOL nope. I might occasionally "pet out" a rabbit but not often, I honestly would rather eat my culls. And heck no I am not spaying and neutering my breeding stock or my show string!!!

For every rabbit that is born either by mistake or through planning, a rabbit at an animal shelter will die, because the baby rabbit that you brought into the world will take a home away from a rabbit at the shelter.

This is a pure fallacy. It's a lie. NO rabbit I breed will take a home away from a shelter rabbit because 99% of the rabbits I breed won't be sold as pets. And if someone buys a show or brood rabbit from me, like heck are they "taking away" a shelter rabbit's home...sorry, but those spayed/neutered mixes common in shelters won't cut it on the judge's table (though thanks to the AR nuts, more and more show rabbits are ending up in shelters, but that's another story).

My next dog? I plan to buy from a breeder. I want to KNOW what I'm getting into. Honestly, I've had rescues and shelters lie to me so much I don't know who to trust any more, and I'm honestly getting two dogs for SPECIFIC PURPOSES which may not be able to be met by shelter dogs: I want a herding-type farm dog who is raised around livestock, so I can more easily manage my future hobby farm (lookin' at YOU there MSD) and I want an Afghan Hound that I can show. I seriously doubt I can find a show-quality, intact Afghan in a shelter...and while a lot of herding dogs DO end up in shelters, I want a dog with specific upbringing from known working parents. Claiming that by buying these dogs I'm killing shelter dogs is a LIE, because if I can't buy those dogs I want, I'M NOT GOING TO COMPENSATE BY RUNNING TO A SHELTER AND ADOPTING A PAIR OF RESCUES. I've rescued a LOT of animals. I've "paid my dues" so to speak. I'm DONE WITH IT.

I hate that argument because it makes logical sense to the AR people and they push it on the average Joe who doesn't really have an opinion. I see it all the time: "don't shop, ADOPT!!!" or "Don't buy while shelter pets die!!!"

A friend of a friend is going through this right now. She wants a purebred Australian Cattle Dog with specific bloodlines. My friend is getting sick of being her only supportive pal on this because all her other friends are lambasting her for not getting a mutt from the shelter. Uhm, she wants to SHOW. She wants a WORKING DOG. Her goal is to see how many titles she can get on an ACD. That means buying from breeders who have multi-talented show-quality dogs. That is HER CHOICE, and they need to respect that!!! But the AR people are training us as a society to be anti-breeder and "always think adoption first!"

This is being applied to rabbits. I've only had one person accuse me of "flooding the pet market with unwanted rabbits" or something (I forget how it was worded, it was a while ago) but they shut up quick when I told 'em I don't sell what I produce. Hard to contribute to shelter populations or "steal" homes from needy bunnies when THEY DON'T LEAVE MY PROPERTY. :roll:

And moreover...if someone DOES breed rabbits to sell as pets....SO??????????? LOL, last I checked this is a free country. :roll: You can DO that here. If there's a market for your buns, breed away!!! I'd rather people buy a healthy young rabbit from a breeder than a questionable and likely diseased animal from a shelter!!

And lastly...the "a rabbit at an animal shelter will die" part? I know locations vary but around here the small animal shelter that deals with rabbits is NO-KILL. So no, the thus far ONE rabbit I sold as a pet? A shelter rabbit did NOT die because of that. Plus since I sold that bun for $10, far undercutting the shelter adoption fee of like $75, I bet if I had NOT sold them the rabbit they'd have just gone to another breeder, because who the heck pays $75 for a sickly mixed-breed shelter rabbit when you can have a guaranteed healthy purebred for $10?!

So before you breed your rabbit, go down to the shelter in your area to see all the other rabbits who desperately need homes.

LOL no thanks. The local rabbit-shelter is a cesspool of disease. Pasturella rules that joint. I won't go NEAR that whole PROPERTY because gods forbid I bring home a horrid virus that kills my whole herd. :roll:

The best thing that you can do for you bunny, and all rabbits, is spay or neuter.

Funny, I would have said "Feed and water them daily" was the best thing, lol.

Also...........mmmmmno. I like my rabbits just the way they are, thanks.

Female rabbits will live longer because you eliminate the possibility of ovarian, uterine, or mammary tumors.

Except because of limited cage space, eventually my older brood does will be either sold or culled. So I doubt anyone is going to hang around long enough to get cancer, unless they get it young.

Your rabbit will be less aggressive, his or her litterbox habits will be more reliable, and most importantly, it will prevent any unwanted litters.

This implies I use litterboxes. LOL nope. And I won't keep an agressive rabbit, sorry...someone gets nasty, they get to go away. :roll: I'd also like to know how they think I'm going to have unwanted litters, due to the majority of my cages having solid steel divider walls...and the few that DON'T have solid dividers, have does-next-to-does only, to avoid any OOPS breedings. Do they think we're stupid and don't know how mating takes place??? And if we DO have an oops litter (hey, it happens to the best of us!!!) guess what!!! :dinner:

Please, for all rabbits, spread this message.

Done and done!!!! I've spread it to the masses. For a good chuckle. :lol:

 

[Dood]

I hate the 'blame the breeder' game !

It is the blooming public that dumps the bunny (or any animal) at the shelter once they are no longer cute or 1 pound or too much bother to feed and water and clean everyday !

These same arses will buy a cute widdle wabbit in the window next year, 'saving' it from the pet store, and dump them again when they become too much effort! I know of several people who are addicted to baby animals but once that baby grows up they 're-home' it and if there are no takers it's off to the pound they go, because you know that's what shelters are for - to take in your screw ups and clean up your mess

And it is the blooming public who are too Lilly livered to give their pet to a 'meat home', dispatch it themselves or pay for a veterinarian to do it.

 

[Secuono]

I always thought it was a waste not to cook up all the animals at shelters [that would be iffy or hard to place] and feed the homeless with them instead of letting them go to the dump. Many shelters are next to a town dump, too. At least, all the ones I've ever been to. Its creepy as all heck.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Couldn't agree with both of you more.

Found another article: http://rabbit.org/the-hidden-costs-of-b ... ur-rabbit/

Shouldn’t those of us who love rabbits take responsibility not just for our own beloved companions but also for the less fortunate ones, waiting at shelters?

In a word, no. It's awesome if someone wants to help out or volunteer at a rescue, but just because I am a rabbit breeder and a rabbit person, that doesn't mean I share ANY of the responsibility for shelter animals. No animal I've ever bred has gone to a shelter, after all!!! So heck with that, it's a sad and sorry situation but I TAKE NO BLAME OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT.

If any adopter decides at any time not to keep a rabbit, you will need to take back the rabbit.

Untrue. It's awesome when a breeder backs their animals forever, but...if I sell a rabbit and two years later they decide they don't want it any more, I am not obligated to take it back. Now...if there's a problem within a reasonable timeframe, sure I'll take the rabbit back and either replace it or put them on the top of a waiting list for my next litter(s). But they specifically say AT ANY TIME.

Now to be clear, I personally WILL take back a rabbit at any time. No replacements, no refunds, no NOTHING after about a month though. And what I do with that rabbit is MY business. If it is returned for health or behavior problems...it won't see the inside of a cage ever again.

Many people want to breed their rabbit because they find her so delightful, lovable, and beautiful. The joy of living with such a companion brings a wish to have these qualities in a second rabbit.

This I agree with!!! On top of being conformationally good breeding stock, I am in eternal delight over the personalities and beauty of my rabbits. Of course I want more like them!!!

Consider this: there is no guarantee that your rabbit’s children will have the same personality as hers.

HUH. I didn't know CHILDREN could pop out of a rabbit!!!! :shock: :? Those would have to be some SMALL children, or some freaking HUGE rabbits!!!!! Oh wait, do you suppose they meant baby bunnies, kits, popples, et cetera?

Just gives some insight into how these people think.

Delightful rabbits are discovered as a relationship develops. There is no gene for “lovableness.”

Uhhh, bullcrap. Personality and temperament are FOR SURE genetic. Yes, an individual personality might change due to handling (or lack thereof) but general temperament is ABSOLUTELY GENETIC. Why do you think I'm so eager for Nellie and Breezy to kindle? They're both GREAT, sweet-natured does bred to a wonderfully friendly, charming buck. Their kits should be awesome! Liz isn't a good temperament but she's been bought/sold so many times, and had so little in the way of handling, I'm waiting to see if her personality is genetic or a product of her life. If her kits are as neurotic as she is, THEY WON'T LAST LONG.

Likewise mothering skills is also in part genetic. Cull the does who can't seem to keep a pet rock alive and keep the ones who raise 1,837,249,813,764 kits per litter without losing condition, and before long you get nothing BUT highly productive does with VERY good instincts. NOT GENETIC MY BUTT!!!!!!!!!

So that we don’t contribute to the suffering of any rabbit, we have all our rabbits spayed or neutered, regardless of breed or personality.

How am I contributing to suffering in rabbits by breeding healthy, happy animals? :shock:

 

[MamaMandy]

Totally agree with all you have said here Kyle. And rabbit children... LOL! Seriously?!

 

[AmysMacdog]

LOL Me to Kyle!

 

[HoppinHalfPints]

This makes me wonder.

What do they think would happen if all the rabbits in the world were altered? That kits would spring from the ground magically?

This stuff makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

This makes me wonder.

What do they think would happen if all the rabbits in the world were altered? That kits would spring from the ground magically?

This stuff makes me sick to my stomach.

Exactly. When no good breeders are left, a breed or even species will not exist. They are so short-sighted!!!

 

[Cspr]

Lololol. These people. XD -bends over laughing-

Me? Yeah, I spent some time catching and rehabbing ferals and fostering cats until they could be given new homes or fixed and taken to the cat preserve (which we have in my state, fantastic). We also do catch/neuter/release programs here. There is an overabundance of cats admittedly. We even have feral packs of dogs. Has to do with the city butting up against empty land or rural areas.

Does that mean I get mad at people who breed their animals responsibly? No. Why on earth would I? Heck, before rabbits I studied cat breeds, genetics, went to a show, etc. I'd considered getting a purebred for showing even. I was the person pulling skeletal-but-pregnant cats out of horrific situations.

How does that work? Responsible breeders aren't the problem. They've never been the problem. They create happy, healthy animals that fit a standard and/or do a job. You never know what you're getting with a mix. I have a Siamese mix that is a great mouser. The Domestic Shorthair born of ferals can barely catch a toy. Therefore, if you need or want something particular, you go to a responsible breeder. You can get healthy, happy animals with potential as a herding dog, a great mouser, a show-winning rabbit, an egg-layer of epic proportions, etc. You know how big it will get, what it will look like, some information on its general disposition, and all that. I'll get shelter animals or rescues as companions, but that's all they're normally good for. The fact my family's dog is immensely talented came as a shock to all of us. If you ever see a wolfish-looking puppy point to birds, you should stare and then slow clap.

So if you want a companion, maybe a special needs companion at that, wanting to do your bit and all? Feel free to get a shelter animal or rescue. It might be harder, it might be easier. You might find your perfect animal friend. That's great. But getting an animal from a respectable breeder, even just for a companion, is also great. Depends on what you need. Hypoallergenic dog? Go to a breeder!

The point they're missing is: Where do shelter animals come from?

In my experience? PTAPs, mills, and hoarders. PTAPs: Pets That Aren't Pets. That is, the animal who belongs to the idiot in an apartment complex that decides their cat can just wander the neighborhood once they're not cure and hormonal. The idiot is to blame, and the PTAP suffers. These are the people who release their animals into the wild. They are the biggest problem. If activist groups need to do anything, they need to go after the owners of PTAPs. I don't know how legally, but at least make a bunch of PSAs and stuff.

Also, there are no rabbits at my city's animal shelter. There is a special group that rescues them, and from what I can tell they are mill rabbits that got old and people didn't want anymore. Reason? PTAP rabbits don't last long.

Shelters aren't flooded with rabbits. I have never seen a shelter flooded with prey animals, only an overabundance of carnivores. That makes basic biologic sense, doesn't it?

So stop blaming breeders or owners of show animals or whatnot and get onto the people who get an Easter bunny or Christmas puppy or kitten. Bloody heck.

Also, their lack of understanding of science bugs me. As a person who loves and studies animals, I eat up scientific animal studies like hot cakes. Such as the domestic Silver Fox experiment in Russia. They were able to domesticate a wild animal species in fifty years by choosing the friendliest examples. They also did a secondary group, once again proving behavior is genetic: They now own "dragon" foxes, which officially have a spot in my nightmares. If I saw a normal fox act like them, I'd think they were rabid.

It is VERY important for a wannabe pet owner to have some idea of personality when it comes to their wanted pet's parents, especially if they are getting a larger or physically strong dog breed. If your Akita pup came from fighting dog lines, it will likely be extremely violent. And, yes, bully breeds aren't the only breed bred for fighting. Other breeds did things traditionally like fighting lions or bull-baiting. Traditional guard dogs can be hazardous to guests. Chow Chows may only bond with one person and attack all others. Etc.

Basically, the most important thing in the world? Knowledge. These people lack it and a lot of pet owners lack it. They think every dog will be a Labrador, even hunting dogs like Beagles or Dachshunds or high-energy Border Collies. Most dogs act more like wolves than people would like to believe. Everything with a domestic dog is insuring you are alpha, especially with bigger breeds. Otherwise you could have a 100 lb. neighborhood terror on your hands. They think kittens are cute but cats are evil or mean, so toss them out once they hit puberty. They don't understand rabbits aren't stuffed toys. -yanks at hair-

These people don't help people become informed. I've learned most of my pet care information from vets and breeders. They know what's up. I still suggest people first read a book before they do anything. You want a puppy? Okay. Go the the library and check out a book. You don't have time to read? You don't have time for a puppy.

/end rant<br /><br />__________ Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:49 pm __________<br /><br />

This makes me wonder.

What do they think would happen if all the rabbits in the world were altered? That kits would spring from the ground magically?

This stuff makes me sick to my stomach.

Exactly. When no good breeders are left, a breed or even species will not exist. They are so short-sighted!!!

If it helps, some ARA groups, such as PETA, and people believe that keeping animals domestic is a crime against nature and that all domestic animals should be spayed and neutered and homed or destroyed. That is, one generation or two of animals and then no more domestics for anyone.

Which, again, flies in the face of all biology. Bees and flowers evolved together. Humans and wolves/African Wild Cats evolved together. Ants keep aphids as pets. -flails- Have they never heard of symbiotic relationships?

It's like the people who don't understand homo sapiens are omnivores. No, we don't have to eat meat, but it's natural for those of us that do. The best vegetarian I have ever met just said, "I don't eat meat because I can't kill the animals myself."

 

[Dood]

PTAPs: Pets That Aren't Pets.

I haven't heard of this aconym before but I LOVE IT!

It perfectly describes the owners mentality - they got an animal just to have one or because its exotic or a fad (Shar Pei, Dalmatian, parrot fish, large parrots etc...) or to stop the kids nagging or because they needed a baby fix or blah blah blah... and no they longer give a crud a just 'want IT gone' ....

Until the kids start whining again or it's too cute to resist or ...

Blaming a responsible breeder for over run shelters is like blaming casinos for gambling or McDonalds for obesity... at what point is the individual to blame for their behaviour?

The government (and Tax payers) cannot babysit every idiot, as it is the shelter budgets in the States seem quite excessive, to me at least, and I would be royally T.O. if my taxes were paying for the life long upkeep of someone else's animal.

 

[Mountain Spice]

Hey guys... I'm a member of PETA!!! (People Eating Tasty Animals) LOL!!!
inkbunny: inkbunny: inkbunny: inkbunny: inkbunny: inkbunny: inkbunny: inkbunny: inkbunny:

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Me? Yeah, I spent some time catching and rehabbing ferals and fostering cats until they could be given new homes or fixed and taken to the cat preserve (which we have in my state, fantastic). We also do catch/neuter/release programs here. There is an overabundance of cats admittedly. We even have feral packs of dogs. Has to do with the city butting up against empty land or rural areas.

Ugh, I lived near a subsidized housing project once, and the whole place was overrun by feral cats. Kittens of unspayed queens that they'd just turned outside...sickening. Our lovely, sweet old purebred British Shorthair would sit in the windows and watch the street cats maul our garbage. Several times we had strays break into the house to steal food...took us over a week to get a truly nasty feral tom out of the basement.

Oh but I'm sure my ex and I were to blame, owning a nice fancy purebred and all. EXCEPT WAIT, we totally got her from a (now defunct I think) British Shorthair breed rescue. LOL.

I love purebred cats!!! And my British Shorthair, my Maine Coon, my Munchkin, and my doll-faced Persian...ALL RESCUES, lol!!! Not because their BREEDER dumped them, but because the jerks who BOUGHT THEM did!!!!!!!!

How does that work? Responsible breeders aren't the problem. They've never been the problem. They create happy, healthy animals that fit a standard and/or do a job. You never know what you're getting with a mix.

Plus around here shelters and rescues lie a lot. They told me that Ember, my Munchkin, was two years old and had no health or behavior problems, except she needed fatty tumors surgically removed. Turns out she was about 13 at the time, is missing most of her teeth due to facial trauma (breaks my heart, vet said it's what she sees in pets who've been kicked really hard) and she's ALMOST TOTALLY DEAF.

She also had a raging infection that my vet said was a long-term thing...she had it for YEARS, and they never diagnosed or treated it.

I told them when I met her that she looked more like a senior than a young cat, and I didn't care if she was two or TWENTY I'm taking her home...but nope, they lied. Then again this is the same rescue who adopted out a little cute black-and-white mix puppy to a very elderly lady...claimed he wouldn't get over 20 pounds. They had a whole litter of the cuteness...so I asked about them. MALAMUTE X MASTIFF. She used to bring him into the salon to be groomed...he got HUGE, hairy and high-energy. It was a totally inappropriate dog for her. To her credit, she put him through a ton of training, got a head-collar for his pulling and did everything she could to keep him, but though she loved him she wasn't happy. She couldn't enjoy a dog the way she'd envisioned. Had she gone to a breeder and gotten a purebred she'd have been better served.

My experiences with reputable breeders has been great. Never had a good breeder lie to me yet!!!

I have a Siamese mix that is a great mouser. The Domestic Shorthair born of ferals can barely catch a toy. Therefore, if you need or want something particular, you go to a responsible breeder. You can get healthy, happy animals with potential as a herding dog, a great mouser, a show-winning rabbit, an egg-layer of epic proportions, etc. You know how big it will get, what it will look like, some information on its general disposition, and all that. I'll get shelter animals or rescues as companions, but that's all they're normally good for.

My next two dogs have a distinct purpose, so I'll be buying them both from reputable breeders. I need a herder and I want my showdog, an Afghan Hound. My totally useless but cute and sweet companion dog from a rescue is curled up between my feet right now...she's sad because with my laptop on my lap she got set down on the floor. :lol: Don't get me wrong, she's cute and loveable and a delightful dog, but she serves no earthly purpose except to love and be loved. That's it. :lol:

The point they're missing is: Where do shelter animals come from?

They claim breeders. They are trying to convince the public it's the BREEDERS. Why, if a BREEDER hadn't bred, say...my charming little Persian, she wouldn't have been abandoned!!!! They neglect to mention it was NOT her breeder who dumped her, though.

Oh, but see, if nobody bred animals there'd be no animals in shelters, ergo breeders are to blame!!! Except wait, a lot of puppies and kittens in shelters are from OOPS litters out of cats and dogs who aren't owned by breeders, they're (I like this acronym too) PTAPs who got knocked up. This is how my dog was born. Some stupid person had an intact female Chihuahua and an intact male Dachshund and figured, hey, they're different breeds so they won't mate. Then they totally DID because they're DOGS, she had puppies, and the male started peeing all over the house. Both parents and the whole litter were surrendered to the rescue the DAY AFTER THEY WERE BORN. Five animals total, three of which were less than 48 hours old. Neither parents were socialized so they have behavior problems and are unadoptable. They will live with the rescue's volunteers the rest of their lives, putting a financial burden on a no-kill rescue that won't adopt out pets that aren't suitable. The lone male puppy in the litter is also staying with the rescue, for similar reasons...he's unnaturally shy and can be nippy. So of the FIVE DOGS, only two were adoptable...my Cricket, and her sister Bailey.

So to sum up, some idiot jerk who had two PTAPs, ended up putting a huge financial burden on a rescue that is now obligated to keep three dogs forever until they die, paying for their food and vet care...and while Bailey has no issues, Cricket has a laundry list of genetic problems ranging from bilateral luxating patellas and hip displasia, to a bone density issue that has resulted in TWO broken legs.

That's a lot of suffering, resources drained from a rescue, and NO BREEDER WAS INVOLVED. Just a moron with two dogs who didn't know that two different breeds could mate together. :roll:

Also, there are no rabbits at my city's animal shelter. There is a special group that rescues them, and from what I can tell they are mill rabbits that got old and people didn't want anymore. Reason? PTAP rabbits don't last long.

THIS THIS THIS!!! THIS RIGHT HERE. Couldn't agree more.

The local small animal rescue claims it's breeders, too. They claim most of the rabbits in their rescue are "purebreds" when they clearly are not...they're your average run of the (literally) mill "mutts" that you see all the time in pet stores.

So stop blaming breeders or owners of show animals or whatnot and get onto the people who get an Easter bunny or Christmas puppy or kitten. Bloody heck.

So much this.

These people don't help people become informed. I've learned most of my pet care information from vets and breeders.

This too. A lot of information about my pets, I got from a vet...when my vet goes on vacation, she "subs" for them. She's a showdog breeder of I think Scottish Deerhounds (and she basically told me that a Sighthound is the perfect showdog for me, so in her words, "PLEASE get your Afghan!!!" :lol and she's a feline specialist with an emphasis on purebreds. She loves to just talk (informative stuff too) for hours!!! :lol:

Never had an AR person give me detailed advice about, say, the perfect nutritional regimen for my purebred cats.

Go the the library and check out a book. You don't have time to read? You don't have time for a puppy.

I'm gonna remember that and bring it up the next time someone I know wants a wildly-inappropriate breed for their lifestyle.

Which, again, flies in the face of all biology. Bees and flowers evolved together. Humans and wolves/African Wild Cats evolved together. Ants keep aphids as pets. -flails- Have they never heard of symbiotic relationships?

Oh I know, they rave about how by keeping pets, we're cruelly exploiting them. Uhm......fun fact, my pets live like royalty. Take my cats for example. They get a meal of special food (recommended by that wonderful vet...I can really see the improvement in coat and energy!) every evening...they have a blend of premium kibble available all day so if they want a snack they can have it...they have more toys than most human children...they have their own FURNITURE and the one cat with spinal arthritis has a little stairway so she can easily get onto my bed...they live in an air conditioned home...they get groomed frequently...and they get LOTS of attention. I give them all of that. They give ME lots of love...and poop, and shed hair, and the occasional hairball. :lol: And then I have to clean up the poop, hairballs and shed hair.

WHO'S REALLY BENEFITTING HERE??? LOL I'd say the cats have a pretty sweet deal!!!!!!!!!

Oh but I'm sure I'm somehow cruelly exploiting them. :roll:

Blaming a responsible breeder for over run shelters is like blaming casinos for gambling or McDonalds for obesity... at what point is the individual to blame for their behaviour?

EXACTLY.

 

[Zab]

I dont see how they wont recognize the risk of sedating rabbits to spay them.

That said, many "breeders" should concider the risk of not getting the rabbits kits sold. I know tons of kids mating their rabbits just to get cute kits... and then they have to dump them somewhere because noone wants their unregistered mutts when the market are flooded. Of course this doesnt apply to people eating those not sold. But they Have thought of the possibility that not all kits find homes.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

I dont see how they wont recognize the risk of sedating rabbits to spay them.

That said, many "breeders" should concider the risk of not getting the rabbits kits sold. I know tons of kids mating their rabbits just to get cute kits... and then they have to dump them somewhere because noone wants their unregistered mutts when the market are flooded. Of course this doesnt apply to people eating those not sold. But they Have thought of the possibility that not all kits find homes.

True enough, I won't ever risk sedation to my rabbits if I can avoid it...they're so sensitive!

I don't consider a kid popping out popples as a breeder though, to me a breeder has a goal and purpose in mind and a clear plan of what to do if they don't sell. Breeders cull for quality regardless of species...in dogs, a pup that isn't good quality is spayed/neutered and sold or kept as a pet. If a person isn't breeding for any reason other than to make rabbits and possibly some cash, they aren't a breeder, they are a mill. A small one, but the term applies. Mills don't care about quality or bloodlines, they breed whatever to whatever to make more whatever, if that makes sense?

In rabbits I really don't see why there is a problem of unwanted rabbits. There are a LOT of hungry people in this country. Almost every day I go to school, I see a guy right off the highway with his cardboard sign. I used to live near the homeless shelter and it was always packed full. They could use all the donations they can get...if we took every rabbit that is in a shelter and donated them to the homeless, that would solve one problem (unwanted rabbits) and help with another (hunger). Same with unwanted chickens or farm animals.

It's all nice and pretty that there are farm animal "sanctuaries," but the fact is homeless livestock could be feeding people.

But yes, good breeders have a plan for if an animal can't be sold. I will try to sell my Mini Rex cull bucks, but if they don't sell, I will simply process them with the meat rabbits. I won't sell MR doe culls unless someone is trying to get a doe to pair with a buck where both are spayed/neutered. I am a breeder, not a mill. I'll be perfectly happy if I never sell another pet rabbit, LOL.

 

[Zab]

That's why I put " around "Breeder"

I've seen similiar lists posted in pet-forums where a lot of kids hang around, and I see their purpose there (it's not so much about never breeding at all though, but more that they shold think twice before). What I dislke there is that it gives an annoying mood about everything that's not registered purebred breeding. I'm not making registered kits, but I still don't breed just to sell.. and why is purebreds worth more? If I breed sound rabbits with a good temperament for pets, how is that less responsible than those breeding for show and sell the rabbits not fit for the show table as pets? A show rabbit can be a good pet, but the truth is that temperament isn't normally prio one. Colour and shape is, and while the rabbit should always be easy to handle, it's not the same as breeding specifically to get friendly, curious companion rabbits.. It's just different goals. (just like breeding horses for Grand Prix is not the same as breeding a sensible trail horse or beginner horse) So that's a bit annoying, I breed for good temperament and for meat. All rabbits are good enough to eat, to personality is prio one Anyhow.. I see the reason behind ''think before you breed'' lists, especially in pet forums.

In those forums there's a lot of ''accident'' breedings.. hm.. you'd think that they'd learn to have secure cages

I personally think we should eat unwanted dogs and cats too, as long as they're not full of meds. It's still meat, they don't suffer when dead and their deaths would be good for something. They eat them elsewhere. I don't see any moral differense between eating the different species. (a lot of reasons not to breed carnivores for meat, but no reason not to eat them) But I suppose I'm cruel. Blame it on that rabbits are mainly pets in my country

 

[Dood]

If your dog or cat is not cremated, chances are they are being used - in dog and cat food or 'meat meal' and and 'animal protein' in livestock feeds.

Most pets are full of drugs that have a long residual life in tissues. It is one of the reasons North American horse meat is failing quality control in Europe and getting ship back at the suppliers cost. I don't think pets would ever be 'clean' enough for human consumption.

 

[skysthelimit]

I used to get dogs from shelters. I won't go into the stories why I don't anymore, I think you all know.

Then I started getting my dogs from reputable breeders.

Now, I bred what I want, and raise the puppies myself, it's the best way to get what I want.

A rabbit friend just got two shepherd lab mixes ( yeah right?) from the shelter, not knowing both had parvo. Really? He could have just gotten a pure bred shepherd from me for the cost of those two and the Parvo treatment, but he's into that "rehome an unwanted dog" thing. There are reasons, most of the time, why the dogs are unwanted.

Anyway, the goal of PETA and groups like them, the true goal, is to end all animal breeding, so anyone who buys their line is silly. It's just a step in that direction.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

If your dog or cat is not cremated, chances are they are being used - in dog and cat food or 'meat meal' and and 'animal protein' in livestock feeds.

This is why I cremate or bury my pet. Shadow's ashes are on my bookshelf...Cheynni's body is buried in a garden...and because my dad and I are still fighting about what to do with Sam, he's currently in the freezer. :roll:

Most pets are full of drugs that have a long residual life in tissues. It is one of the reasons North American horse meat is failing quality control in Europe and getting ship back at the suppliers cost. I don't think pets would ever be 'clean' enough for human consumption.

This. Plus with cats and dogs, even with titer testing (which would make the use of their meat cost-prohibitive) there are some drugs that will harm humans that we don't know if they are in there.

I think the problem with horsemeat is bute...I know it's pretty harmless if given to a horse, but if you feed a horse bute and then eat the meat, it can be carcinogenic in humans. I'd rather not eat meat that could give me cancer, thanks!!!! And it stays in the system a looooong time...and if you are eating horses with unknown pasts, it is impossible to know if someone dosed them with bute. Heck I used to give bute to m old gelding Dandy...when he was two he broke a leg, and by the age of 30+ he was really arthritic in that leg. An all-day horse show was tough on the old boy, a dose of bute would keep him going.

What I dislke there is that it gives an annoying mood about everything that's not registered purebred breeding. I'm not making registered kits, but I still don't breed just to sell.. and why is purebreds worth more? If I breed sound rabbits with a good temperament for pets, how is that less responsible than those breeding for show and sell the rabbits not fit for the show table as pets? A show rabbit can be a good pet, but the truth is that temperament isn't normally prio one. Colour and shape is, and while the rabbit should always be easy to handle, it's not the same as breeding specifically to get friendly, curious companion rabbits.. It's just different goals.

First off I agree that mixes can be valuable. Most of the commercial rabbitries I've heard of breed mixes...they breed the best to the best, regardless of breed.

As to show rabbits and temperament not being the priority...maybe it's because I'm a super-small rabbitry but I have to disagree. Temperament is very important to me...I want friendly, curious rabbits that I can pull out and cuddle or play with. I want them to be calm and docile, unflappable and friendly. Not only does it make them better at shows (they don't act stressed, they pose readily no matter who grabs 'em, they don't kick or struggle) but it means I can enjoy them as pets at home...the reality is 99.9% of their lives are spent at home here. If my best-conformed kits from my coming litters are not to my liking temperament-wise, I won't keep or show them. I want both a good quality animal with good type and coat...and a good personality.

(just like breeding horses for Grand Prix is not the same as breeding a sensible trail horse or beginner horse)

Yeah but I think there is a bigger temperament-variation scale between breeds than in rabbits. I'd also not hesitate to say horses are much smarter than rabbits, too. LOL well MOST are...Dandy was scary-smart. Casey...well...he was a nice gelding!!! Really nice!!! STUPID, but nice! In a battle of wits with Casey versus a box of hair, the box of hair would narrowly edge him out. But MOST horses are smarter than rabbits.

I personally think we should eat unwanted dogs and cats too, as long as they're not full of meds. It's still meat, they don't suffer when dead and their deaths would be good for something. They eat them elsewhere.

Most dog and cat meat is from animals fed unnaturally to flavor the meat. If you've never eaten a carnivore's flesh...well I wouldn't recommend it. In parts of Asia where dog is consumed, they feed the dogs almost nothing but rice to make the meat taste better. You literally ARE WHAT YOU EAT...it's why grass-fed beef is sooooo much better tasting than grain-fed. I can thaw a hunk of venison from our freezer, and tell you based on taste where the animal was taken...I hunt both in a swamp, and on a farm. Swamp deer eat acorns and cedar...they are very "gamey" and have an intense flavor...the deer from the farm who ate corn and apples all it's life, the meat is mild and almost bland by comparison.

While I want to feed our homeless, I'd want to feed them safe, healthy food that isn't sub-par. Dogs who eat dog food are going to taste like crap. I'd rather they be fed to other animals, perhaps donate slaughtered dogs and cats in shelters to wildlife preserves???

I don't see any moral differense between eating the different species. (a lot of reasons not to breed carnivores for meat, but no reason not to eat them) But I suppose I'm cruel. Blame it on that rabbits are mainly pets in my country

You aren't cruel at all. We're all made of meat, LOL.

I used to get dogs from shelters. I won't go into the stories why I don't anymore, I think you all know.

I think I recall reading about it here, though I don't remember specifics...dang my crappy memory.

Now, I bred what I want, and raise the puppies myself, it's the best way to get what I want.

That's not a bad idea, actually. :?

A rabbit friend just got two shepherd lab mixes ( yeah right?) from the shelter, not knowing both had parvo. Really? He could have just gotten a pure bred shepherd from me for the cost of those two and the Parvo treatment, but he's into that "rehome an unwanted dog" thing. There are reasons, most of the time, why the dogs are unwanted.

I wonder how much money he's going to pour into those dogs. I know what Parvo treatment costs...I'll be shocked if he doesn't spend enough for TWO quality purebreds treating that alone, not to mention the fact that a lot of Lab mixes in shelters are from really bad stock and are prone to hip dysplasia, allergies, et cetera...

IMO, it costs the same to vaccinate, feed, and care for a mutt as a purebred or a mix from know breeders (hey, some GREAT working dogs are mixes!!!). So why get the shelter mutt?! Hey if you want a good mix, there's those out there too!!! I've seen people breed fantastic working animals...heard of a guy who breeds Malinois x GSD, for a good solid ringsport dog that is a little less "hot" than a pure Mal...knew a guy who bred a litter of German Shorthair x Brittany, ended up with a smallish pointer who was both a great hunter and looked ADORABLE...and I have seen several people crossing herding breeds with great success.

A good breeder is a good breeder is a good breeder.

Anyway, the goal of PETA and groups like them, the true goal, is to end all animal breeding, so anyone who buys their line is silly. It's just a step in that direction.

I saw this on FB the other day...seems relevant to the discussion:

 

[Zab]

If your dog or cat is not cremated, chances are they are being used - in dog and cat food or 'meat meal' and and 'animal protein' in livestock feeds.

Most pets are full of drugs that have a long residual life in tissues. It is one of the reasons North American horse meat is failing quality control in Europe and getting ship back at the suppliers cost. I don't think pets would ever be 'clean' enough for human consumption.

I know. It's one of the reasons I prefer BARFing my dogs - that meat is unlikely to come from vets. Now, I still feed some canned because I'm lazy and my dogs seem to think they're domesticated (Kiro is very picky about food, as well as skinny and has some psycological issue related to food. Bad experiences I think, but one of the reasons he's not being bred despite being purebred and Best in Show + Best in Breed, only ever loosing to his sister)

Meds are also the reason my horse won't go to human consumption when his time comes. Or any other consumptiobn, all meds are in his passport and written down.

I think it's sick to make food out of animals poisoned to death (lethal injection) or filled with drugs (and by that I include antibiotics with perhaps an exception on if it's been used only a few times) but I know it's happening. Even in places where it's illegal.

I also find it ethically wrong to feed dogs and cats with dogs and cats.<br /><br />__________ Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:11 pm __________<br /><br />

First off I agree that mixes can be valuable. Most of the commercial rabbitries I've heard of breed mixes...they breed the best to the best, regardless of breed.

As to show rabbits and temperament not being the priority...maybe it's because I'm a super-small rabbitry but I have to disagree. Temperament is very important to me...I want friendly, curious rabbits that I can pull out and cuddle or play with. I want them to be calm and docile, unflappable and friendly. Not only does it make them better at shows (they don't act stressed, they pose readily no matter who grabs 'em, they don't kick or struggle) but it means I can enjoy them as pets at home...the reality is 99.9% of their lives are spent at home here. If my best-conformed kits from my coming litters are not to my liking temperament-wise, I won't keep or show them. I want both a good quality animal with good type and coat...and a good personality.

I'm not saying most show breeders ignore temperament, but the more stuff you have to concider, the less priority each thing can have If you need a certain marking and get THE perfect marking on a rabbit that's okayish in temperament, most show breeders will chose that one over the super-duper nice rabbit with a faulty marking. I would if I bred for show, as long as there's nothing wrong with the temperament in the show quality rabbit. But breeding for temperament only or just not having to care about marking or body at all, I'd chose the friendlier one.

I'm not by any means saying that your rabbits are less friendly than mine (they're probably nicer, I've been sloppy with making mine used to being handeled, and I havn't bred much yet either) if you take temperament into concideration I bet they will be friendly. But my experience is that I've met far more friendly rabbits from kids who just mated their friendly pets because the pets are nice,or even from pet stores, than I've met really nice show rabbits (often calm, but a bit boring and not really happy about being touched just tolerating it. Or even aggressive ones unfit for the table that's sold for pets) or jumping bred rabbits (high strung to get quickly around the course and be active which works fine if you give them enough excercise and have good luck, but many of the kits end up as very nervous adults). Not all are like this of course, I'm just saying that different goals make different priorities and different rabbits I don't see a problem with breeding specifically for pets (or that it would be less responsible to do so) as long as the breeder is responsible in all other aspects as well.

That being said, I don't support the mills or the kids breeding just to get cute bunnies (many with cute bunnies that bite or scratch). But I know some that want kits after their pet because the pet really is an amazing, healthy pet and to me that's just as a good thing to breed for as a nice colour or type.