First time Doe mom is scratching in nest and burying kits

[Knacker]

Hello

My Black New Zealand doe just had her first litter this morning. After my morning chores I brought the nest box in and checked for dead (5 survived and 2 DOA), I fixed nest and made sure the kits were all huddled together then brought the nest back out to her. She seems to be scratching around inside the front of the nest box and pushing the kits and fur to the back; in doing so she is completely burying them and I am not sure how exactly they are supposed to get to her if she decides to nurse later.

We aren't hugely experienced and we haven't seen this action before. Can this be deemed normal or just a flaw since it is her first litter? Everything she did pre-birth has been great, lots of fur pulled, proper nest, ect.

Thank you.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Hi Knacker,

you need to get the kits out of the nestbox NOW. She may kill them accidentally.

Her "nesting instinct" has just kicked in, and she is trying to dig a burrow. She has no clue that there are kits in there and she may stomp on them or damage them while digging.

Put the kits in another container with bedding and fur until this evening, and then bring them out to her so she can nurse.

I would err on the safe side and remove them from the nest again until morning, or when her digging behavior stops.

:hi: to RabbitTalk, by the way!

:welcomewagon:

 

[Knacker]

Thank you Mama. I was actually just outside checking them when you replied, and immediately went back out to retrieve them after reading. They are all OK but WOW, she had pushed almost all the straw to the back. There was almost no space between the roof and straw mound.

She does seem to have an instinct of burrowing over the rest of our herd. Before she settled on this nest configuration she did attempt to scratch out the bottom of the box. She has scratched at the cage floor in the the corners too starting at an earlier age.

Our last litter to another doe was kept indoors other than feeding for the first 2 weeks and I am wondering if we should just do that for this litter. Does this tendency subside? Should I move the pocket of kits closer to the front so she can see and smell them?

Oh, and when you say another container to mean a completely different nest box or different style of nestbox?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

They are all OK

Whew!!! Glad to hear it!

Does this tendency subside?

Yes, within a day or so she should stop the frantic digging.

Our last litter to another doe was kept indoors other than feeding for the first 2 weeks and I am wondering if we should just do that for this litter.

You certainly can if you want, but I am pretty certain that by tomorrow evening at the latest she will be finished with the nesting phase.

Should I move the pocket of kits closer to the front so she can see and smell them?

The best place for them is toward the back of the nest, but some does put them at the front. Once she is finally finished rearranging the nest, you can just make a little hollow near the back and place them into it.

when you say another container to mean a completely different nest box or different style of nestbox?

Just a container to keep the kits in while the doe is nesting. I like to allow them to go through the motions of good mothering behavior even if it comes a bit late or they have lost their litters.

 

[Knacker]

Just so I understand correctly, you are suggesting taking the kits out with the fur and some straw and place them in a separate container and leave the current nest box in with the doe until she subsides? Would I then just pull the current nest box out and replace with the temporary container for feeding times?

Thanks BTW for the help.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Just so I understand correctly, you are suggesting taking the kits out with the fur and some straw and place them in a separate container and leave the current nest box in with the doe until she subsides?

Correct.

Would I then just pull the current nest box out and replace with the temporary container for feeding times?

Nope- just put the kits into her box.

Thanks BTW for the help.

You're welcome! Glad to be of help!

 

[Knacker]

All is done Mama.

I guess the last question is in respect to putting the kits into the existing nesting box for feeding. Would you suggest just putting the kits themselves in and not any fur? Would I just plop them on the surface or create a little cubby hole, and would this be in the rear still?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I would create a depression near the back and put them in with fur in case it takes her a while to feed them.

Also, it may be a good idea to take the nestbox away from the doe about an hour prior to feeding time... I know that when I have pulled nestboxes from does they were always very eager to jump right in to feed morning and evening, so hopefully she will do the same and hop right in to check her nest.

 

[Knacker]

Thanks.

The doe we just culled yesterday would hop in the nesting box as we were trying to get it in the cage. A real unfortunate loss, but she was not fun to deal with and we feared she was going to castrate our awesome buck or at the very least make him fear does in the future. Great Mom though.

-- Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:50 am --

So I took the kits out twice last night and left them with mom for less than an hour at a time. Obviously I can't be sure they were fed but they were warm. The nest box was barely touched other than myself observing the doe sticking her front feet in and sniffing. Since I had a bit of optimism that she would not destroy the babies by scratching and pushing around the hay, I finally left them with mom around 12:30 am.

This morning there was more fur pulled and a bit of disturbance (nothing as bad as yesterday) in the nest box so I checked them. They are still warm and huddled together but they are fairly deep in the fur. Again I can't be assured they were fed since their bellies do not look distended. I realize the does milk might not have dropped yet but I hope she has felt the urge to nurse as to help with lactation.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

It sounds like her nesting frenzy is over!

You might want to give her a little bit of parsley to help with her milk. It is a mild emmenagogue that causes uterine contractions, and as any mother who has breastfed her babies will tell you, those contractions make your milk let down.

I only give it for the first two or three days because it is also an herb that can be used to help dry up milk.

 

[Knacker]

Can dried parsley work or cilantro be used as an alternative? We have lots of fresh cilantro and it is related to parsley. Since I have no other errands to make, the trip to town would make the parsley rather expensive <br /><br /> -- Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:49 am -- <br /><br /> Found some frozen parsley in the freezer from my wife's herb garden

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Dried parsley is fine. I have never tried cilantro.

 

[Knacker]

Maybe I shouldn't post this question here but my wife and I are curious if a newborn kit only urinates when fed? I just brought them inside to do a quick inspection before sending them out again and they are wizzing on the towel and in our hands. Since we are still fairly new at this we can't remember if our other litters did.

Still trying to determine if these kids are in fact being fed very little or if at all.

Thank you.

-- Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:34 am --

UPDATE:

So she has pulled even more fur and pushed hay again to the back leaving little overhead in the nest box. The kits were once again buried but they are warm, quiet and they seem to be fairly docile until touched. They do not look much different than last night. Hopefully this is a sign of feeding, but most likely very little. I haven't weighed them this morning yet, maybe they have grown.

I am going to keep them inside and just take them out in the evenings and mornings to see if that changes anything. <br /><br /> -- Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:39 am -- <br /><br /> UPDATE:

I just weighed them and the litter weight has gone up from 8.5 oz to 9.85 oz. Not great but something.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I just weighed them and the litter weight has gone up from 8.5 oz to 9.85 oz. Not great but something.

Hmm. I have never weighed newborn kits, so don't know if that is abnormal or not, but it does sound a bit low.

This thread shows the difference between kits that are getting fed and those that are not:

fed-vs-unfed-kit-pictures-t3052.html

It is always a good idea to breed at least two does at the same time in case one doe has issues. Of course, that is no help for you now, but something to keep in mind for the future.

Supplemental feeding may help. This first thread linked to below is by our very own Miss M, giving her recipe and techniques for hand feeding kits. The updated thread has additional ingredients to add to the formula that some have found gives even better outcomes.

formula-feeding-baby-bunnies-pics-vids-t3691.html

updated-hand-feeding-formula-t27372.html

 

[Knacker]

Thanks Mama.

I should add to that Hildi kind of gave me a quick chance to feel her teats. They do indeed feel as if they have milk in them.

Anyhow, we are heading to town this morning and I am going to get some ingredients for a milk supplement.

-- Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:15 pm --

Update:

No luck on goats milk products in our nearest town other than cheese, so I was able to find another recipe that others have used.

1/2 cup evaporated milk
1/2 cup water
1 egg yolk
1 Tbs corn syrup

Definitely took some time to feed, I would almost say these little buggers were content without it. They show no sign of distress. Not full tummies, but really not complaining either.

-- Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:04 am --

UPDATE:

So Hildi is still pulling fur, yet it is now just ending up on the cage floor since we have not been leaving nest box in overnight; and Hildi is still messing with the nest box and unfortunately I had to dispatch one kit later in the day due to a big tear on a shoulder. We tried the formula feeding with not much success. The kits were semi interested at first but in the end they just weren't interested enough.

We brought Hildi into the house yesterday and laid her on her side and allowed each kit to nurse themselves. The condition of her nipples definitely showed signs of nursing :up: We brought her in again this morning to our living room and placed down the nesting box beside her. She immediately jumped in and nursed the kits for a few minutes :clap:

It appears we have some sort of success with her first litter although she went from a litter of 7 to one of 4. I should add that Hildi urinated after her second mounting session with Pilsner and I blame this for the smaller litter. She was a bit mad at me after that session so I just let it slide and awaited the results. We will continue to keep the kits inside for another week. This is however a strike 1 against Hildi unfortunately.