First litters, first tragedy... Update, all dead.

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Permajen

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:cry:
Unbelievable.
Overnight, I've lost my nicest doe (of two). No marks, nothing. I believe it was hemorrhagic disease, but can't be sure -- I was too upset to autopsy. I did look in her eyelids and mouth -- she had no nosebleed but did have extreme pallor of the membranes with some dot-point bleeds. But as I say I couldn't face opening her up.

Now I have 5 babies in the nest, all 10 days old.
The other doe is nursing 3 babies, all born at the same time. Is there any chance she'd accept the orphans if I mingled them all in her nest?

Sorry -- I just didn't realise these things can happen without any warning at all. What an awful morning. :(

Thank you so much for any ideas.
 
Wow, real sorry to hear Permajen. I would go ahead and put the 5 kits in with the other 3 kits and the mom should warm up to them and feed them nicely. I guess try to look on the brightside of this and be grateful that you had another doe who kindled around the same time.
 
Take the box or the doe out, put the new babies in it, and then put them back after a couple hours. She should take over care of them. It will just be whether she has the milk to raise that many. We had really bad luck with our first purebred litter. We had some dutch x mini rex kits and then bought some champagne d'argent. The smaller doe prolapsed both horns of her uterus with the first litter and we had no other doe to give them to since her sister didn't take.
 
Oh, I am so sorry!

I would put the kits in with the others, but it would probably be a good idea let them mingle for about an hour or so before putting the nest back with the doe so they all smell alike, just in case.

I would watch her and see how she reacts. If she acts a little off, take the nest out for the night and bring them back to her in the morning.
 
I'm so sorry, Permajen! :cry:

Like Akane pointed out, her milk has adjusted to three kits. She may adjust to the increase, but keep a close eye on the kits. You may need to pull them and supplement them, if they're not getting enough.

As soon as their eyes are open, you can offer a shallow dish with oatmeal soaked in (canned or fresh) goat's milk. The sooner they start nibbling, the sooner the pressure can be taken off of the doe.

:clover:
 
Thank you all so much -- I knew you'd be just wonderful.

I can't believe how distressing this is! I've butchered my own farm animals before, but I've never had rabbits and I really did adore that girl. I should have known: never, ever have a favourite!

I've done as suggested, and have my fingers crossed that the other mother won't die of the same disease (if it was hemorrhagic fever) and that the kits can survive too. But if it is that disease, that's the end of rabbit raising for me. The vaccines are too expensive.

Apologies for that little rant -- this has been a sad day.

Jen
 
Where are you at? RHD is rare in North America and there is no vaccine here. Cocci can kill without any symptoms in some cases. You should find some signs on internal organs though. Various mold that might be found on pellets, hay, or straw can also kill quickly without many symptoms. Usually all you find when cutting them open is gas in the intestines which can be mistaken for GI stasis or could be confused with normal gas caused by bacteria after the animal dies. You might see necrotic sections of bowel if they survived long enough to progress that far.
 
I'm really sorry about losing your doe :(
I live in New Zealand and every year RHD spreads up and down the north and south island. It's so contagious, they say it spreads on the wind.
 
Good(ish) news: I put 3 kits with the other doe (and her existing 3 kits), and they haven't been turfed out, and all look reasonably well fed today.

Unfortunately I couldn't see any chance at fostering all 5 (and my home life is rampantly busy due to a disabled family member), so I forced myself to do the terrible deed yesterday on the 2 smallest. It was awful but quick.

akane":1aytcxia said:
Where are you at? RHD is rare in North America and there is no vaccine here. Cocci can kill without any symptoms in some cases. You should find some signs on internal organs though. Various mold that might be found on pellets, hay, or straw can also kill quickly without many symptoms.

Thanks so much for those thoughts, Akane -- I'm in Australia (where RHD was deliberately released to control wild populations). Still, with both the other rabbits looking well today, maybe it wasn't RHD.

I didn't consider cocci, admittedly. Wouldn't there be a little bit of lassitude the day before, or hours before? Sorry to question -- it's just that she was her usual bouncy happily-eating self at 6pm when I checked on her. As well, when I picked her up in the morning (dead), she felt plump and surprisingly heavy. But maybe that's a feature of liver cocci? I haven't seen that before, only chick cocci, which strikes with a very clear pattern (and is easily prevented using fermented feed, early exposure, and other strategies).

As for mold, the feed is always fresh, with uneaten greens/feed removed from the pen daily, but it's possible the sprouting buckets are harbouring spores. I'll scrub and bleach. I'll also change the sprout ratio to contain less mold-prone grains just in case. Thanks again Akane.

michaels4gardens":1aytcxia said:
when I have a mystery death, I remove the dead, and completely sanitise the pen and surrounding area, then let it rest for a few days, I also sanitise my self before touching anything else.

Cheers, michaels4gardens, that's very helpful advice. I'll get stuck into cleaning and sanitising today.
I appreciate the input. :)
 
People have gotten new "fresh" bags of feed and killed half their stock. The molds that produce the toxins are invisible and may be on the grain before the pellet is made. Corn is the worst for it along with legumes including soy and peanut. Some peanut butter caused a bunch of very sick people a few years back. There was no sign it had a problem until everyone got sick and then I think I heard they discovered a small leak in the roof over the harvested peanuts before they were turned in to peanut butter. They've also found some of the toxins in the milk of cows that ate moldy grain but lived. Aflatoxins are nasty stuff.

I had several dozen juniors acting completely normal one day and mass death the next from what seemed to be cocci. The ones still nursing and the older ones with established immune systems survived but the ones in between just dropped dead. We did use medication but there were some difficulties getting it in to all the rabbits so we culled nearly an entire generation until we could kill off some of the cocci. Once we brought the levels down and put the young kits and adults back the deaths stopped. Cocci is always present though. It can't be removed completely. It was a horribly humid, hot summer and on top of that we were using containers of ice that were condensing the moisture in the air and running it down the sides. Everything was soaked for about 3 months.
 
Hi Akane, your cocci story is certainly a heads up for when the babies emerge. As for aflatoxins etc, thanks for that detail too -- I've seen similar things with moldy wheat harming chickens, though not that fast.

I can see I've got a lot to learn, but will keep trying. Many thanks for all your input.

cheerio,
Jen
 
akane":100kx6xo said:
People have gotten new "fresh" bags of feed and killed half their stock. The molds that produce the toxins are invisible and may be on the grain before the pellet is made. Corn is the worst for it along with legumes including soy and peanut. Some peanut butter caused a bunch of very sick people a few years back. There was no sign it had a problem until everyone got sick and then I think I heard they discovered a small leak in the roof over the harvested peanuts before they were turned in to peanut butter. They've also found some of the toxins in the milk of cows that ate moldy grain but lived. Aflatoxins are nasty stuff.

I had several dozen juniors acting completely normal one day and mass death the next from what seemed to be cocci. The ones still nursing and the older ones with established immune systems survived but the ones in between just dropped dead. We did use medication but there were some difficulties getting it in to all the rabbits so we culled nearly an entire generation until we could kill off some of the cocci. Once we brought the levels down and put the young kits and adults back the deaths stopped. Cocci is always present though. It can't be removed completely. It was a horribly humid, hot summer and on top of that we were using containers of ice that were condensing the moisture in the air and running it down the sides. Everything was soaked for about 3 months.

that is exactly right :twisted:

and a coccidiostat is cheep insurance, once or twice / year. For all breed stock. I add Corid in the water system every fall after I quit breeding . just so I don't see a sudden problem in the rabbits during a stress period
 
The recent Cocci outbreak was so great, I was told that there was a seminar on it at this past Convention. It's a Corrid resistant strain, which I why I continued to lose stock even after I repeatedly dosed my whole herd with Corrid.

My last case in my own rabbits was in August, and I managed to save those kits by giving them calf milk replacement scours meds. Neomycin I think. I recently brought another group of rabbits here, and bought two Cal kits. I almost lost one Cal kit, and lost one of the new rabbits, so I see that this will be an ever present problem for new animals, but now my own herd is resistant. Still, as a precaution, I dosed all the weaning kits with the milk replacer, something I would not normally do.
 
Well, it's a bit academic this morning -- the remaining 2 adults are dead. Again there's no mark on either rabbit and they were quite normal yesterday.

If any of the excerpt added below this post is true, I don't believe it was cocci. They were in a large pen after being bred and raised on the ground. They are not being kept in intensive conditions except the buck, but his cage is moved daily inside the pen and his toilet area is a tray. They are all of good heavy weight. The fecal material I cleaned out from their toilet areas yesterday was the same as every other day: tiny spherical firm dark nuggets. To my understanding cocci is always a question of graduated exposure, not letting animals raised on hygenic litter or wire suddenly come into a zone of high oocyst contamination. If anything these rabbits would have had less exposure lately because it's been cooler and dryer in the past 2 weeks than at any time earlier.

I do feel it's RHD. I also wonder whether the vector for moving it around the countryside isn't only rabbits but also native wildlife (which have shown antibodies to it)? There was a dead wallaby (small kangaroo) near our fence two weeks ago, and wallabies have stopped visiting our regrowth. We used to see them every night; they haven't been back since. I wonder.

Maybe it wasn't RHD but moldy grain. These are my first rabbits. But chickens are very susceptible to aflatoxins and my chickens eat a diet wholly based on the same sprouts that the rabbits are eating. Indeed my chickens' entire diet is sprouts with fermented soy and minerals, whereas the rabbits ate mostly fresh greens with hay. I've raised my chickens since hatch on this diet. They're all fine.

Sadly I have to decide what to do with six babies who, if they survive, will only drop dead overnight. Unfortunately, with thanks to everyone for kindness and amazingly helpful responses to various threads, I have to bow out of rabbits. I gather almost all the optimistic commercial rabbitries around Australia who set up when rabbit farming became legal have met a similar fate -- I'd just hoped that a more natural style of rabbit raising with a diet higher in fresh greens, more space and less stress per rabbit, and lower production expectations might have given my rabbits an immunological head start over the commercial ones. It didn't, so there you go.

Thanks again and best wishes everyone.

Excerpt on cocci:
From [url=http://www.nutrecocanada....w.nutrecocanada.com/docs/shur- ... abbits.pdf[/url]

Symptoms
Clinical symptoms of intestinal and hepatic coccidiosis are very similar and hard to distinguish between the two. Often healthy rabbits may be carriers of the protozoa, but show no symptoms of the disease. The severity of the disease depends on the number of oocysts ingested by the rabbit. The entrance of Eimeria spores into the intestinal and liver cells cause cells to malfunction and expand in size. Erosion and ulceration occurs in the epithelial lining of the intestine, which results in poor absorption of nutrients, electrolyte imbalance, anemia and dehydration of the cells. Common clinical signs include a reduced appetite, depression, abdominal pain, retarted growth, diarrhea and pale mucous membranes. Feces may contain blood or mucous. Any or all of these signs may be absent in older rabbits.
Intestinal Coccidiosis
Intestinal coccidiosis mainly affects young weaned rabbits six weeks to five months of age. This is attributed to stress, noise, transportation or immunosupression. Symptoms appear within four to six days post infection and include a rough coat, dullness, decreased appetite, dehydration and weight loss. Rabbits may also develop intussusception, a blockage of the intestine caused by a telescoping of the bowel on itself. When weight loss is greater than 20%, convulsions or paralysis is seen, followed by death within 24 hours. The majority of deaths are a result of dehydration and secondary bacterial infections.
Hepatic Coccidiosis
Rabbits infected with E. steidae, the protozoan responsible for hepatic (liver) coccidiosis, may have mild to severe infections. Mild infections show no symptoms while moderately infected rabbits will have growth retardation. Severe infections result in loss of appetite, weakness, diarrhea and possibly constipation in the later stages of the disease. E steidae inhabits cells of the bile ducts and liver, causing blockage and severe liver damage. X-rays show enlarged livers and fluid in the abdomen, which contribute to the water or pot belly symptom. This disease will either linger for several weeks or cause death within 10 days, preceded by a coma. Necropsy reveals white spots or nodules on the surface of the liver.
 
I am so sorry you lost the other adults! :cry:



From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_hemorrhagic_disease :

Transmission of RHD occurs by direct contact with an infected animal and fomites. Rabbits acquire RHD through oral, nasal or conjunctival pathways. Urine, faeces and respiratory secretions may also shed the virus. The virus may also be carried by the wind. Carriers of the virus may remain infectious for up to a month depending on climate conditions; however, the virus has been known to persist for as little as 2 days and as long as 215 days. An infected carcass or hairs from an infected animal may also transmit RHD. Fomites such as clothing, contaminated food, cages, bedding, feeders and water will also harbour the virus. Even though the virus cannot reproduce in other mammals, predators and scavengers such as foxes, ferrets and some birds can excrete the virus through their faeces after ingesting an infected rabbit carcass. Flies, rabbit fleas, and mosquitoes can also spread the virus between rabbits.[3]

Climate appears to play a crucial role in the transmission of RHD.[citation needed] In normal conditions, most outbreaks of RHD occur in winter or spring. High temperatures in late spring and summer will considerably reduce the spread of the virus. RHD will also be more prevalent in dry and semi-dry areas than in areas that are relatively cool and humid.[4]
Signs

RHD primarily infects only adult rabbits. In fact, research has shown that rabbits younger than 8 weeks of age are resistant to the virus. The incubation period for the RHD virus is between 1 to 3 days, with death following 1 to 2 days after the infection. There is a wide range of RHD symptoms. Most rabbits will show no signs of external symptoms of RHD.

Symptomatic cases of RHD will display fever, squeals, and often coma leading to death within 12 to 36 hours. In less severe cases, rabbits may display uneasiness, excitement, anorexia, swollen eyelids, paralysis, ocular haemorrhages, and paddling. Convulsions may be seen as well. A fatal bloody discharge from the nose has been exhibited along with blood-stained cage floors, though these symptoms may have occurred after death. Rabbits who have recovered from the less severe symptoms usually develop severe jaundice with weight loss and lethargy. Diarrhoea, constipation and abdominal cramping are then exhibited right before death a few weeks later.

RHD causes rapid development of blood clot formation in major organs such as the heart, lungs and kidneys. The clots block blood vessels causing heart and respiratory failure. An infected rabbit that has died from RHD will often have its legs straight out and head over its neck.[4]
Diagnosis

RHD may be indicated when several animals in the herd die after experiencing a fever and lethargy. Differential diagnosis includes pasteurellosis, myxomatosis, poisoning, heat exhaustion, and E. coli or Clostridium perfringens type E enterotoxemia.

Rabbits that die from RHD are usually in good outward state. However, the most frequent post-mortem lesions are hepatic necrosis and splenomegaly. The liver of RHD rabbits may have a fine reticular pattern of necrosis outline each lobule and maybe yellow, gray or pale in colour. The liver is also usually friable and swollen. The spleen will be black in colour and also swollen with rounded edges, while the kidneys are dark brown in colour. Haemorrhages will also be seen many other organs and tissues. The trachea may present a foamy, bloody mucous. Enteritis of the small intestine and swollen meninges may also occur.

Laboratory tests such as reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR), Western blotting, negative-staining immunoelectron microscopy and ELISAs may be performed on samples from the liver, blood, spleen or other organs.

From http://www.veterinaryresearch.org/content/43/1/12 :

3. Clinical signs and histopathological lesions

The incubation period of the disease ranges between 1 to 3 days and rabbits usually succumb within 12 h to 36 h after the onset of fever (> 40°C). Depending on the clinical evolution of the disease, three different clinical courses can occur [38,72]. In the peracute form, infected animals show no clinical signs and die suddenly. Acute infections are accompanied by anorexia, apathy and congestion of the palpebral conjunctiva and neurologic symptoms such as opisthotonos, excitement, paralysis and ataxia may also be observed. There are occasionally some respiratory signs (tracheitis, dyspnea and cyanosis) and a foamy and bloody nasal discharge; lacrimation, ocular haemorrhages and epistaxis can also occur. Subacute forms of the disease present similar, but milder clinical symptoms and most rabbits survive. Rabbits experiencing subacute infections develop antibodies against RHDV which confer protection upon re-infection [73]. In addition, it has been reported that during an outbreak of RHD, a low percentage of rabbits may experience a chronic form of the disease with symptoms including a severe and generalised jaundice, anorexia and lethargy [35]. These animals tend to die 1-2 weeks later [54], but animals that overcome the disease present a potent seroconversion [35]. Interestingly, this form of the disease has been shown to be associated with the presence of RHDV core-like particles [35,55].

The liver, lung and spleen are the primary target tissues of RHDV. The major histopathological lesions found at necropsy are acute hepatitis due to liver cell loss as the result of RHDV-induced apoptosis, and splenomegaly [74,75]. Haemorrhages and congestions can be seen in several organs, particularly in the lungs, heart and kidneys, as a result of a massive disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC) which is usually the cause of death [76]. Depletion of both B and T lymphocytes in the liver and the spleen accompanies the disease and accounts for an impairment of the immune response [72,77] and a fatal progression of the disease within 2-3 days. In contrast, resistant rabbits develop high titres of IgM (and then of IgA and of IgG) already at day 3 pi, thus presenting an effective humoral immune response [54]. Table 1 presents a summary of the histopathological alterations that can be observed upon RHDV infection.
 
Permajen":24p53yhq said:
Well, it's a bit academic this morning -- the remaining 2 adults are dead. Again there's no mark on either rabbit and they were quite normal yesterday.

This is so very sad :( its just like many stories I've read on New Zealand forums, rabbits normal healthy one day and dead the next. Babies live because their immune systems are not formed and RHD kills because a immune system reaction in adults. People often end up with a nest full of babies and a dead doe. I know one person who did have 2 babies out of a litter of 6 that lived but they vaccinated them at 8 weeks for RCD and then again at 12 weeks.

Permajen":24p53yhq said:
I do feel it's RHD. I also wonder whether the vector for moving it around the countryside isn't only rabbits but also native wildlife (which have shown antibodies to it)? There was a dead wallaby (small kangaroo) near our fence two weeks ago, and wallabies have stopped visiting our regrowth. We used to see them every night; they haven't been back since. I wonder.

This is a huge worry to me that you believe it might have infected wallabies around your house. I read a post where someone thinks it is killing Tasmanian Devils.

New Zealand, like Australia, also released the virus on purpose, and I fear that RHD will leap from rabbits to other animals. It is so contagious, I read that the lab that was developing and testing the virus/vaccine was off the shore of Australia and it spread from the lab over the ocean onto the mainland and infected other rabbits. I can't understand why people would release a highly contagious virus into huge populations of animals and assume it won't jump species- ebola, swine flu, bird flu, aids- all viruses that jumped species... Hello!!!

Right now they are working on a new strain of RHD in Australia because rabbits have become immune to the old one and they are planning on releasing it. Once they release it in Australia it will surely be released in New Zealand because New Zealand does whatever Australia does. So infuriating!
 
Hi squidpop,

Yeah, the version of RHD we have in Australia was engineered to be more lethal and virulent than the naturally occurring strain on which it appears symptom descriptions are based. :x The enhanced virus 'escaped' 'accidentally' from a laboratory island to the mainland.

In NZ I read it was spread despite a government report saying there was potential for species jumps. (You probably read that too.) Apparently farmers here helped out their NZ brethren by sending frozen blobs of blended-up sick rabbit livers across the water. Well, supposedly it was 'farmers', those simple but honest folk it's unfair to criticise because they feed us. Definitely couldn't have been Big Ag pushing science for profit ahead of any other concerns, no no no.

squidpop":9wky6llr said:
This is a huge worry to me that you believe it might have infected wallabies around your house. I read a post where someone thinks it is killing Tasmanian Devils.

Really? Crikey. Then again, the devils have been dying off for a bit longer than the viral release, I think. I could be wrong there. I'd love to read that post, if you have a link for it -- maybe I could chat to the poster. We might have a few thoughts in common!

On the wallaby front, I'm not saying that's likely, but it's worth wondering. Only a few months ago all the kangaroos that used to visit Wyee Golf Course died mysteriously within a few days, dropping dead in public (how rude of them!). Autopsies apparently found tick fever. I have no doubt that's a genuine finding, but I also wonder whether the vets looked further than the diseases they expected to find. If they didn't, RHD/calicivirus might have escaped notice.

There now -- I'm nowhere near being a scientist. I'm just very very sad that rabbits I looked after had to drop dead overnight. And I'm certain it was neither mold nor cocci.

Have to go now, but thanks for listening and replying squidpop. And good luck to your rabbits. Hope you get traction against anyone importing more Aussie stupidity... And I say that as someone who adores my country. :lol:
 
Permajen":32n1httj said:
Hi squidpop,

Yeah, the version of RHD we have in Australia was engineered to be more lethal and virulent than the naturally occurring strain on which it appears symptom descriptions are based. :x The enhanced virus 'escaped' 'accidentally' from a laboratory island to the mainland.

In NZ I read it was spread despite a government report saying there was potential for species jumps. (You probably read that too.) Apparently farmers here helped out their NZ brethren by sending frozen blobs of blended-up sick rabbit livers across the water. Well, supposedly it was 'farmers', those simple but honest folk it's unfair to criticise because they feed us. Definitely couldn't have been Big Ag pushing science for profit ahead of any other concerns, no no no.

squidpop":32n1httj said:
This is a huge worry to me that you believe it might have infected wallabies around your house. I read a post where someone thinks it is killing Tasmanian Devils.

Really? Crikey. Then again, the devils have been dying off for a bit longer than the viral release, I think. I could be wrong there. I'd love to read that post, if you have a link for it -- maybe I could chat to the poster. We might have a few thoughts in common!

On the wallaby front, I'm not saying that's likely, but it's worth wondering. Only a few months ago all the kangaroos that used to visit Wyee Golf Course died mysteriously within a few days, dropping dead in public (how rude of them!). Autopsies apparently found tick fever. I have no doubt that's a genuine finding, but I also wonder whether the vets looked further than the diseases they expected to find. If they didn't, RHD/calicivirus might have escaped notice.

There now -- I'm nowhere near being a scientist. I'm just very very sad that rabbits I looked after had to drop dead overnight. And I'm certain it was neither mold nor cocci.

Have to go now, but thanks for listening and replying squidpop. And good luck to your rabbits. Hope you get traction against anyone importing more Aussie stupidity... And I say that as someone who adores my country. :lol:

The arrogance ,and greed, of our Government leaders, and agribusiness companies that bribe them, is amazing. The disasters that follow in their wake, should be a concern to us all.
 
I am so sad... :cry:

and disgusted
and furious

Oooooh, my goodness... I am so sorry, Permajen!

Whatever you decide to do with the babies, we will understand and support you. :grouphug:
 
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