Finally Blues! A few questions...

[ThunderHill]

We've always wanted to add blues to our herd of black/ broken black/ REW New Zealands, but hadn't found the right ones. Well, we finally did it! We made contact with someone several months ago who was going to sell a beautiful 2-year old senior doe but then decided not to. We reached back out recently to see if he had any kits available, and he ended up offering the original doe we wanted, plus her litter of four 6-day old kits, all with pedigrees... for $25 total! He was leaving town for an extended period and needed to find them a new home quickly. So they're in quarantine now and doing great!

A few questions:
When we picked her up, the seller was picking her up by her scruff, unsupported, which I know can cause injuries to large rabbits. She has a bald patch in this area that looks otherwise fine (not inflamed or anything, just bare white skin - shown in the second picture). Could this be caused by the scruffing, or would you have concerns that is something else? There isn't any indication of mites in her ears or any other bald spots, etc.

And finally, does anyone know if breeding her to a REW buck will impact the blue color of her offspring down the line? Other than causing them to carry REW, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the actual shade of blue could be lighter or darker depending on the parents' colors, but I'm not sure. Like blue x blue would be a lighter blue, blue x black would be a darker blue, etc.? Does anyone breed blues and know if this is true, and is there an "ideal" shade of blue, lighter or darker? The buck is self-black under the white, so I would expect all of their kits to probably be black (carrying both REW and dilute), but the next generation from breeding to one of her current kits would give blues. Regardless, we're just really excited!

Thanks in advance for any advice or info!

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

Wait... I know you also got their mother, but someone sold you six day old Kits?

 

[ThunderHill]

Yes, they had to re-home them together due to a situation where they had to leave town for work. Otherwise they wouldn't have sold them like that, I'm sure.

 

[eco2pia]

I do not think the hairless patch looks like mites or scruffing damage per se--I do sometimes scruff lift large rabbits briefly, depending on the format of the carrier I need to load them into, or in the case of escape emergencies, and while a struggling rabbit can cause bruising to the area, I have not seen a single point hairloss like that. I would not be overly concerned. That honestly looks a lot more like the mouthful of hair pulled out by a buck during breeding, which might not have filled back in yet since her last breeding. Alternatively she could have pulled it herself while building a nest, or snagged it on something in her previous cage...I would just watch it for signs of spreading and inflammation, but not worry too much.

 

[ThunderHill]

I do not think the hairless patch looks like mites or scruffing damage per se--I do sometimes scruff lift large rabbits briefly, depending on the format of the carrier I need to load them into, or in the case of escape emergencies, and while a struggling rabbit can cause bruising to the area, I have not seen a single point hairloss like that. I would not be overly concerned. That honestly looks a lot more like the mouthful of hair pulled out by a buck during breeding, which might not have filled back in yet since her last breeding. Alternatively she could have pulled it herself while building a nest, or snagged it on something in her previous cage...I would just watch it for signs of spreading and inflammation, but not worry too much.

Thank you! There was so much pulled fur in her nest that I wondered how she had any left on her body, so maybe that was it! I'll keep an eye on it.

 

[Alaska Satin]

A few questions:
When we picked her up, the seller was picking her up by her scruff, unsupported, which I know can cause injuries to large rabbits. She has a bald patch in this area that looks otherwise fine (not inflamed or anything, just bare white skin - shown in the second picture). Could this be caused by the scruffing, or would you have concerns that is something else? There isn't any indication of mites in her ears or any other bald spots, etc.

I agree with @eco2pia, that looks like a chunk pulled out by herself or another rabbit.

And finally, does anyone know if breeding her to a REW buck will impact the blue color of her offspring down the line? Other than causing them to carry REW, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the actual shade of blue could be lighter or darker depending on the parents' colors, but I'm not sure. Like blue x blue would be a lighter blue, blue x black would be a darker blue, etc.? Does anyone breed blues and know if this is true, and is there an "ideal" shade of blue, lighter or darker?

I have read that REW x blue will fade the color, but I have not found that to be the case. I regularly breed my black, blue, himalayan and REW Satins to each other without issue. I suspect that losing the depth of color comes more from the color genetics hidden in the REW, i.e. if he carries poor color, that's what will show up in his kits. If you want deep blues, only breed rabbits with that deep blue color (even when breeding to other colors).

The only interaction I have found when crossbreeding colors is that over time, if I breed blacks to each other exclusively, I end up getting fur with poor density. At least in my Satins, something about blues and whites is connected with good density. So I will always keep blues and REWs in my herd to interbreed with my blacks (plus I like them anyway ).

As far as an ideal shade of blue, that depends on the breed. Satins are supposed to be a medium to dark blue; the SOP (Standard of Perfection) for Americans calls for a "dark slate blue;" while Beverens should be "light lavender blue." The New Zealand SOP describes a "deep, rich" blue without actually specifying the shade. In my experience, winning NZ Blues are a medium to dark shade. Your doe appears faded and brassy, as if she's about to go into molt, but the kits look like a nice dark shade to me.

The buck is self-black under the white, so I would expect all of their kits to probably be black (carrying both REW and dilute), but the next generation from breeding to one of her current kits would give blues. Regardless, we're just really excited!

Even if the buck is black under the white, he may still carry a dilute allele even if there are no blues on his pedigree; it can hide for generations. In that case you might get blues from your first cross. You'll probably find out eventually!

 

[ThunderHill]

I agree with @eco2pia, that looks like a chunk pulled out by herself or another rabbit.


I have read that REW x blue will fade the color, but I have not found that to be the case. I regularly breed my black, blue, himalayan and REW Satins to each other without issue. I suspect that losing the depth of color comes more from the color genetics hidden in the REW, i.e. if he carries poor color, that's what will show up in his kits. If you want deep blues, only breed rabbits with that deep blue color (even when breeding to other colors).

The only interaction I have found when crossbreeding colors is that over time, if I breed blacks to each other exclusively, I end up getting fur with poor density. At least in my Satins, something about blues and whites is connected with good density. So I will always keep blues and REWs in my herd to interbreed with my blacks (plus I like them anyway ).

As far as an ideal shade of blue, that depends on the breed. Satins are supposed to be a medium to dark blue; the SOP (Standard of Perfection) for Americans calls for a "dark slate blue;" while Beverens should be "light lavender blue." The New Zealand SOP describes a "deep, rich" blue without actually specifying the shade. In my experience, winning NZ Blues are a medium to dark shade. Your doe appears faded and brassy, as if she's about to go into molt, but the kits look like a nice dark shade to me.


Even if the buck is black under the white, he may still carry a dilute allele even if not blues are on his pedigree; it can hide for generations. In that case you might get blues from your first cross. You'll probably find out eventually!

Thank you for such great info! When we got our original trio, the breeder did tell us that she got an occasional blue, so we've always had our fingers crossed that we'd get some. However after around 3 years or so of line-breeding, no such luck, but you never know! That would be awesome if we did!

 

[hotzcatz]

Are you sure the doe is blue? On the monitor here, she appears more chocolate than blue.

Blue, and chocolate, too, for that matter, are both 'dilute' colors and require a double recessive in order for the color to appear. If the REW buck doesn't have the proper recessives, you'll not get more than blacks. Well, unless he's an agouti of some sort under the REW, then you'd get agouti as well as blacks. What color are the REW's parents?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Are you sure the doe is blue? On the monitor here, she appears more chocolate than blue.

Blue, and chocolate, too, for that matter, are both 'dilute' colors and require a double recessive in order for the color to appear. If the REW buck doesn't have the proper recessives, you'll not get more than blacks. Well, unless he's an agouti of some sort under the REW, then you'd get agouti as well as blacks. What color are the REW's parents?

Chocolate <aabbC_D_E> is a recessive, but it is not a dilute. Lilac <aabbC_ddE_> is the dilute form of chocolate.

I agree, the doe's shade seems a bit chocolatey, at least in the second photo. I assumed she was just out of coat and her blue was brassy due to sunlight and molt, but it would be great to hear what she has on her pedigree.

In that same second photo, one of the kits looks pale enough to be lilac, but in the third photo they all look blue or black. I'm thinking it's just a weird exposure/lighting...?

 

[ThunderHill]

Hi! Both the doe and her kits have only blue or black in their pedigrees. The lighting is weird in that picture where she looks a bit chocolate!

 

[ThunderHill]

Oh, wow! I hadn't looked all that closely before at the pedigrees, but just realized both my doe and the sire of her kits came from Grace Hollow rabbitry! I've watched tons of her YouTube videos and always admired her rabbits! Awesome score!

 

[ThunderHill]

If the REW buck doesn't have the proper recessives, you'll not get more than blacks. Well, unless he's an agouti of some sort under the REW, then you'd get agouti as well as blacks. What color are the REW's parents?

Oh, sorry I missed this question! My REW buck's parents and full pedigrees of his parents are all black, broken black or REW. I'd be surprised if anything else was hiding in there, but you never know! So yes, probably all black (carrying dilute and REW) for the first generation.