Fertility & Holding Question

[Secuono]

I'm just wondering how potent a buck is a minute after, 2, 3, 5min, 10min? Is it fairly low all within 30min or what?
My buck finally got things right and after just a minute or three, he was ready to go again. But do these breedings so close together even count? Should I be spreading them apart a certain amount of time?

Also, my does just hate being carried. I was moving my new doe so I could clean up her cage w/o annoying her too much and she spazed out. No matter how I hold the scruff of her neck, she will kick my hand off her or flip, twist or who knows what. I can try putting her head under my arm so it's dark and calm, sometimes that works. Or hold her under my arm w/her front legs on my arm, hand holding them and her back end under my elbow, w/or w/o holding her back feet with my free hand. Any position they both can get out of and totally loose it.
She freaked so much that she hopped up into the air and I caught her w/my hand under her hips and my other hand under her front right down to the ground where I pinned her.
The only way I can move either doe is by holding them by the scruff of their necks AND the skin over their hips/butt. They stay quiet when I have to carry them like that, any other way and its a massive gamble. And w/my little dog a pro killer of all things small and fast, it's best if I hold them like that than take a chance at my dog literally tear her apart from the inside out within second of them reaching the ground.

If anyone is wondering, my buck is a doll! I always pet him and I can carry him all over. I never grab him by the neck, just lift him up like a little baby. Can't do that w/the does, they panic over everything...

 

[akane]

I have bucks down in colony with 6-10 does. I've seen them cover 4 does several times each until they are ready to collapse and then get 4 litters a month later. I also know people who will breed 2 or 3 does, 3 times each, to the same buck in one day in order to get litters at the same time and they still get large litters. If your buck is being used rather than sitting around not breeding for extended periods of time and not suffering heat sterility he most definitely can breed successfully many times in just minutes.

Your does sound like they just need handled more and the dog needs tied up when you are moving rabbits. Very irresponsible to move rabbits around a dog who will kill them. I have some spitz breeds created specifically for hunting. One I can count on to try not to harm the critter even though she will try to corner or pin it down thinking she's helping me and the other is absolutely never unleashed or released from her crate with animals smaller than her out of their cages. It's just part of life with a breed of dog like that. Growing up she took out a few chickens equal in weight to herself before we could get out the word no.

Take the dog out of the equation and you can get your does out to work with them. Get a flat surface and place something with traction on it like a door mat or chunk of carpet. Then you can use it to look over your does and pose rabbits to judge their type and decide who to cull.

Another option when moving rabbits is just to have a carrier or extra cage handy. With some of the larger less friendly breeds the breeders keep carriers on wheels and use that to go between cages so they only have to lift the rabbits enough to lower them and pull them out of carriers. I've seen the checkered giant breeders doing that. They pick them up by the loose skin just long enough to get them between their carrier and a cage or another surface like the judging table. You should still have somewhere to safely look your rabbits over though.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I have one really sweet doe that love to be petted but will literally spazz out when you try to carry her. She will flip out of your arms, while simultaneously scratching you to death! We have to put her in a carrier to move her...once she is on solid footing, she is a sweetheart.

 

[Secuono]

Yea, guess I need to use a crate, too. I don't need any more scratches and cuts up and down my arms and belly...lol.
The Chin I can work with, but my SF rather shred me. I have been moving the buck into her cage, since its far easier and he lives next to her. He doesn't notice the 'new' cages b/c it isn't really new. And no, she doesn't get territorial, they are fine together.

 

[Cattle Cait]

I've bred three or four does all in a row with good results.

 

[LilFish_JWQueen(:]

ive had no problems with breeding does to one buck right in a row.

And i cringe when people take a hold of a rabbits scruff... thats why they are spazing out and scratching you..specialy wen you pick them up by their back or rump. Pick the rabbit up by taking ahold of the back of their shoulders or lifting under its belly.
someone did a study on it..when you pick them up by the scruff you are litterly pulling the muscules off the skin...its terrible specialy if its a meat rabbit. please i encourage you to pick up the rabbits a different way that is better for you and the rabbits. hold them close to you when u have them picked up..they want to feel safe like their not gonna fall.

 

[ladysown]

use an old milk crate to haul them around in, even a sturdy cardboard box and tie your dog up. Seriously, if she is that fast, you want her tied or kenneled when you are working rabbits anywhere near her.

 

[Miss M]

Pick the rabbit up by taking ahold of the back of their shoulders...

What do you mean? Is this like grabbing the scruff, except down over the shoulders?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

[/quote]
What do you mean? Is this like grabbing the scruff, except down over the shoulders?[/quote]

I'm glad you asked that, Miss M, because I don't quite get it either. When I pick mine up, I grab their ears and scruff to immobilize them (not lifting) and then slide my other hand under their belly close to their rear legs and then lift from there, settling their head end in the crook of my arm. I can't get a solid grip on their shoulders. I always place them back in their or the buck's cage hindquarters first so they don't make a leap for freedom (er-confinement!) back into their hutch.

 

[Cattle Cait]

Pick the rabbit up by taking ahold of the back of their shoulders...

What do you mean? Is this like grabbing the scruff, except down over the shoulders?

I'm confused too because, from what I always understood, the scruff IS the back of the shoulders.

At any rate, I handled my Checkereds (the most active of the bunch) by keeping a firm hold on the scruff while holding my other hand under the hips between the hind legs, supporting the weight on the hand-under-hips.

With some handling she should become easier to carry.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

CattleCait I think the scruff is the loose skin on the nape of the neck- picture a Mama-cat carrying her kittens!

 

[Cattle Cait]

Oh! How does one hold a rabbit like that then? I always thought it was the skin over the back of the shoulders because...well, I'm not sure why. It seemed like a simple place to grab.

 

[Secuono]

Scruff is the neck.
I've tried to lift them like a pet, gently from underneath, but they loose it. My buck is like a baby, so I lift and carry him like one. He stays calm no matter what. But the SF doe for sure looses her mind just because. The Am Chin I will see if I ca get her to chill out enough to lift her out like a pet.
But I will be switching to moving just the buck to the doe's cage, watching to make sure things go as planed and then move him back to his cage.

 

[LilFish_JWQueen(:]

ok sorry i havnt been on in a while. i went out of town but by grabing the back of the shoulders.. lik by putting your hand over the back and right behind the shoulders i guess its lik picking them up by their armpits. not sure if u still understand. ill take pics of what i mean for those who still dont understand when i get a chance. but thats the best way i can write down what i mean by that.
and yes the scruff is the skin on back of the neck lik a mama cat picking up her kitten. and picking them up like that ruins the condition of the rabbit. thats why here in michigan they changed the way to pick a rabbit up for showmanship and to teach kids a better safer way to pick a rabbit up. for many years people have picked rabbits up by the scruff and im NOT a person whos all oh poor rabbit has to get a tattoo type person but i firmly believe that picking them up by the scruff makes them unfortable and ruins their condition(as i said someone even proved its terrible for meat rabbits).<br /><br />__________ Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:23 pm __________<br /><br />and for the bigger rabbits pick them up by one hand under the stomach the other hand under the rump..its pretty simple...and cait your going to the showmanship thing friday right? cause jane burt ( whos teaching it) explains it better then i do and u will see what im talking about for picking up both ways for pickin up both bigger and smaller rabbits.

 

[Jana15]

You could also use a towel. Just lay it down in the cage, plop the rabbit in the middle and wrap it up. I use to have to do that with my previous rabbits(Also you dont get your own fur coat in the shedding seasons) I pick up my bun the same way LilFish_JWQueen describes, and it works well for me. But all rabbits are different!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Thanks Lilfish- picking them up by their "armpits" makes sense to me. I'll have to give that a go- hope my hands are big enough!

 

[OneAcreFarm]

ive had no problems with breeding does to one buck right in a row.

And i cringe when people take a hold of a rabbits scruff... thats why they are spazing out and scratching you..specialy wen you pick them up by their back or rump. Pick the rabbit up by taking ahold of the back of their shoulders or lifting under its belly.
someone did a study on it..when you pick them up by the scruff you are litterly pulling the muscules off the skin...its terrible specialy if its a meat rabbit. please i encourage you to pick up the rabbits a different way that is better for you and the rabbits. hold them close to you when u have them picked up..they want to feel safe like their not gonna fall.

I would like to see that study...I can understand if people are lifting ONLY by the scruff and carrying them like that. But *holding* by the scruff and supporting with the other hand under the rump or hindquarters is not damaging to the rabbit. I think it does a great dis-service to others to tell them that they are "damaging" their rabbits, when they are doing what works for them and their particular rabbits. Please understand that I am not criticizing you, I just want to point out that "show" rabbits and those raised for other reasons don't always get socialized the same way. The rabbits I have that were NOT raised by me will not allow me to hold them any other way. I hold the scruff, put the other hand under the rump and then tuck them into a football hold. My one doe, I cannot do that with. She will tear me up. If I try any other way to pick her up, she will freak out and hurt not only me, but herself as well. Now, with the ones I have raised, I can pick them up any old way. Under the armpits, like a baby, scoop them under the belly, etc. Like anything else, you really do have to do "what works best for you". JMO....

 

[MaggieJ]

I agree with you, One Acre Farm.

MamaSheepdog, you make a good point about the size of one's hands. There is no way I can pick up even a five-pound rabbit by the "armpits" with one hand. My full handspan from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the baby finger when stretched fully is less than 7 inches.

 

[LilFish_JWQueen(:]

ok well we all have our own opinion and i raise satins which is considered a big rabbit and it works for me cause i do well with em because their flesh condition is better because i dont pick em up by the scruff.
i do believe i mentioned a way to pick up a bigger rabbit by putting one hand under the belly and one hand on the rump...thats the way i pick up a bigger rabbit. anyone should be able to do this..
i mean im 5'2 and 98 pounds so you can imagine how lil my hands are lol even tho i have picked up a 7pound roaster by the armpits(and other hand on rump) cause thats usally what i enter in fair. but i think one hand under the belly and one on the rump is best.
i wish i could show you how to pick them up in person and if any of you go to convention next year ill be glad to show you and unfortunately i dont have a hold of the study and im not sure if the person who did it is still active in rabbits.
im not sure if you think picking them up by the scruff is easier because your rabbits are not handled enough or your not confident enough to pick them up the way im describing to you. but go out and try it before saying its impossible.
again this is my opinion and some will be open minded about it, some wont. but i know alot of older breeders who will agree with me how to pick a rabbit up without ruining their flesh condition.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

i wish i could show you how to pick them up in person and if any of you go to convention next year ill be glad to show you and unfortunately i dont have a hold of the study and im not sure if the person who did it is still active in rabbits.

Lil, I know how to pick them up, and for the most part, I pick them up the exact same way that you do...I am not trying to say that you are wrong. Just pointing out that what works for most rabbits, might not work for some.

im not sure if you think picking them up by the scruff is easier because your rabbits are not handled enough or your not confident enough to pick them up the way im describing to you. but go out and try it before saying its impossible.

It has nothing to do with confidence and I don't think it is easier.(actually, I find it harder... ) I don't "pick them up by the scruff". I hold the scruff with one hand and pick them up with the other hand that is under their hindquarters. As I said before, I pick up 95 percent of my rabbits just like you do...however, I was given some rabbits by another breeder and they were not socialized the same way as mine and yours are. I did not say that it is impossible to pick up rabbits the way you were describing, I was saying that with SOME rabbits, they won't ALLOW you to pick them up that way without hurting you, and themselves, in the process.

again this is my opinion and some will be open minded about it, some wont. but i know alot of older breeders who will agree with me how to pick a rabbit up without ruining their flesh condition.

I absolutely respect your opinion, and like I said, I don't disagree with you. You seem to have a lot of good experience with rabbits in general and I always read your posts with interest. I just think there is more than one good way to accomplish most things in life. Sometimes, you have to adjust your "standard operating procedure" to fit a different situation.