doubting myself. inside or in the outdoor hutch?

[DarayTala]

So my doe Midnight came to me as a proven doe and supposedly good mother. She is a lop/NZ mix, and had been bred to a lop the day I got her. Her first litter was five, two half eaten, two dead when I found them, and one which I tried to hand raise and fail. I thought at first that she had killed the two that were partly eaten, and possibly the other two as well, but the more I learn the more I have doubted that. It did take her about two days to deliver the whole litter, I'm betting complications are why they died. Either way, she didn't seem interested in nursing the survivor and wouldn't let down her milk when I held her for the kit to nurse, hence the failed attempt at raising it myself.

Now her second litter was a little unexpected. She had made a huge nest the first time, the second time she didn't even try. She delivered on day 30, one day earlier then the last time, and I found the kits starting to get cold with no nest made in the nest box. I made a nest out of hay and saved fur from the last time and gave her a whole bunch more hay in the main part of her hutch so she could add to it. The nest was fine when I went to bed, and the next day she'd eaten all the hay and dug all the fur into the main portion of her hutch, and the kits didn't survive the cold. I was pretty upset at her, especially since she didnt touch any of the hay in the rest of her hutch, just destroyed the nest.

I re-bred her the day after she lost her last litter and when she was about half way through the pregnancy, brought her inside into a cage in my bedroom. My thought was I could watch her a lot more closely, and if she did have trouble with not making a nest, I would have a lot more time before the kits cooled down and a better chance of saving them. I did make sure to move her in a good two weeks before she was due, probably a little earlier, so she could get used to the setup. Its now day 27 of the pregnancy and I'm doubting myself. I'm worried she won't be as comfortable inside, and was much more calm and used to her hutch. I don't know which is better though, having her out there where its cold and she can be frightened by predators, but possibly more familiar, or having her inside where I can watch her but where she might not be as adjusted. I don't know if its even just too late for me to move her again at this point. I think I'm just worrying way too much since she hasn't successfully raised a litter with me yet, and my other does are all refusing to breed at the moment so shes my best chance of kits anytime soon. Any advice on what I should do?

 

[skysthelimit]

Let it alone. You've done what you could, so wait it out. This seems like her third strike.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I would keep her in- she should be used to it by now, and you have a better chance of catching problems. Hopefully she will do better this time, but if not, you can see what exactly is going on.

 

[Miss M]

I agree. As close as she is to delivery now, just keep her where she is. Hopefully, she'll get everything right this time! :clover:

 

[DarayTala]

Thanks. I really do hope she gets it right this time. One of my partners has become very attached to her. He said even after the first miss, that we keep her no matter how she does from now on. After that I put a stop to him naming my bunnies, though he did name the two satins that are his. I can understand though, she is such a beautiful rabbit, and very endearing. Is there anything I should do to make her more comfortable? Any herbs or meds I should ready to help with milk or delivery if need be? Granted, if she needs help to just raise healthy kits, I certainly won't be saving any offspring from her. But since we are keeping her either way, we might as well keep breeding her and try and make her earn her keep, and if she needs extra help then that's okay as long as it doesn't cost more then she and any kits are worth. I know that may seem cold, but while she may be sweet, she needs to earn her keep here and not just be another pet who consumes feed that could go to other producing rabbits.

 

[Miss M]

No, that's not cold, it's practical.

It's wise to have some fruity Tums on hand. Some will give a Tums a day or two before they're due, others will give it only if the doe appears to be having delivery problems. For some reason, it can help a doe through a tough delivery.

Parsley, among other things, is supposed to help with milk production. Remember that it can actually be up to a couple of days before the doe gets milk in.

Many does have trouble the first few times, and go on to be great mothers! Hopefully, yours is one of those.

 

[DarayTala]

Thank you, I do very much hope she can do a good job. I was told when I got her that she was a great mother, always made a big nest, and did a good job raising all her kits. She did make a big nest the first time, so maybe the second was a fluke? It seems like the two times she kindled she did half the process right each time, if only I could put those two times together! Its making me wonder if its me, her, environment, or if I was lied to and she was gotten rid of because of these issues.

 

[ZRabbits]

Fingers crossed that all goes well this time.

Karen

 

[AnnClaire]

Hi Daray,

Your doe may very well have been a great mother for the other owners. However, as nice as your place is, she could still be upset over the changes. Also, are you using the same type of nest box, housing as the previous owner ... does can be very particular about their housing, so for a proven doe, I might think you should consider giving her more than the traditional "three tries."

As for the fruity tums, labor/birth depletes calcium and the tums will supply a boost for the doe. Some want them, some don't, some eat them the day before kindling, some eat them the day of. All you can do is offer it in a seperate bowl and wait and see.

As for her destroying the second nest, could there have been any kind of upset such as stray/feral cat, rats, dogs, sirens, etc that could have distressed her? IMHO, moving her inside is actually your best bet to get her settled and relaxed enough to kindle successfully at this time.

Rather than the nest box she had the last time, you might try ziptying a large shoe box in the cage ... that seems to be the most "neutral" nest box and see if she does better for you with that. You could also drape a towel or blanket over three sides of the cage to darken it a bit more for her to encourage her feeling of security.

Good luck!

 

[Miss M]

You could also drape a towel or blanket over three sides of the cage to darken it a bit more for her to encourage her feeling of security.

This is an excellent idea. Make sure it is a towel or blanket you are willing to have munched on.

 

[DarayTala]

I have no idea if I am using a similar set up to the previous owner. All she told me before I got Midnight from her was that she also has her rabbits houses outside of her home. I don't even know if that means a barn, shed, hutch, or what not. I have tried to contact her since but gotten no reply. The last two tries she was in a hutch which was wood and wire, open on the front and one side, sheltered on the back, and a nest box attached to the other side. The cage inside is large, mostly wire, and the nest box I put in this time is a wood one I just made, never used by any other doe. The hutch was one I got second hand and disinfected, and then it was empty for the month before I got her, so I doubt it had another scent on it. Who knows though, maybe she will prefer the nest box I just built? She did use the one both times in the hutch, she just didn't leave the nesting material in the second time...

Thank you for the blanket idea, I considered that when I first moved her in, and promptly forgot it. I will find something right away to make her feel more secure. As of now, shes eaten or strewn around any hay I gave her to nest. She also seems to like sitting on the small roof that goes over a quarter of the nest box. Its day 29 now, no signs of nesting like her first try. And don't worry, she gets as many as she needs to get it right, since my family is attached to her anyway. Hopefully with all your help I can find the right combination soon and she'll raise some beautiful healthy litters.

Also, I might need help figuring out what color she is. I thought she was black, and noticed some silver or gold tips just around her back legs, and that the part of the fur right next to her skin is white, but turns to black about 1/4 - 1/2 the way up. Any idea?

 

[AnnClaire]

Daray,

The color sounds sort of like a silver tipped or gold tipped steel ... but I don't have very much experience with color so much yet LOL

As for the hay, I would think that right now, she is only interested in it for eating, so giving more than her daily ration is just wasting it ... the time I would give extra/nesting hay is when she picks her daily ration up in a haystache, then give her more for nestbuilding.

I haven't found does to be very concerned with scent from other does in/around nestboxes, but you never know ... however, her perching on top of the nest box is a good sign that she is comfortable with it and hopefully she will kindle in it successfully.

As for getting information from the breeder, IMHO, let it go and let Midnight "tell" you what she wants.

Another thing you can do would be to simply line the whole bottom of the cage with a nice thick layer of hay, stuff the nest box with hay, and wherever she has the kits, there will be a nest of hay for them to keep warm in. Of course, that also means you will probably have hay from one end of the room to the other for a few days