Description of necropsie, what am I dealing with?

[GBov]

So I am STILL loosing rabbits, both old and young. Have given a full course of Corid. One died today so I finally had a chance to open up a fresh one as I have been away for 10 days and had a friend taking care of the herd.

On the outside of the kit it was wet on face around mouth and nose that was NOT there when it was alive earlier today.

Inside of the kit, inside of left hind leg a large pocket of puss. Between back legs a puddle of blood. Stomach ruptured high up near back bone when I was looking at it. Food in stomach but nothing in small intestines other than a yellowish liquid and not much of that either. Large intestines were full and dark green. Lungs deep dark red and full of blood. Pool of blood in chest. Liver looked mostly fine with a few lighter blotches but kidneys were very pale and vained in darker red.

Two of my 2 year old New Zealand does and one of my Rex does are listless and look ill.

Does ANYONE have ANY ideas as to what I am dealing with and how to help them???

Next week the entire herd moves 300 miles south so more stress on an already stressed herd.

Help

 

[MaggieJ]

I feel so bad for you, GBov... You've certainly been having a rough time. I'm not much help on rabbit illnesses, I'm afraid, but all those symptoms sound very sinister. I hope someone else will be able to give you some answers so you can fight this. (((HUGS)))

 

[GBov]

I feel so bad for you, GBov... You've certainly been having a rough time. I'm not much help on rabbit illnesses, I'm afraid, but all those symptoms sound very sinister. I hope someone else will be able to give you some answers so you can fight this. (((HUGS)))

I hope someone can chime in with a "Yeh, I had that and did this and it fixed it fast!" too!

At this point I am actually contemplating culling the entire herd and starting over in the new year. It makes me feel ill thinking about it but, on the other hand, if I risk bringing in something that could infect the soil and keep killing rabbits for goodness only knows how long at the new house it might be for the best.

 

[MaggieJ]

The thought that you might be better off culling them all (in view of the move) went through my mind, but I didn't like to suggest something so drastic.

My worst fear is that it would be something like Viral Hemorrhagic Disease (VHD)

I don't usually post links to House Rabbit Society sites, but this one seemed useful.
http://www.rabbit.org/care/vhd.html

 

[squidpop]

I don't think its VHD. VHD isn't really associated with diarrhea, when rabbits get it there are almost no symptoms (except some say their rabbit was more quiet than usual the day before, not playing), then all the sudden they have a stroke and die. It happens really fast and most people just find their rabbit dead. If there is blood it comes out of the mouth or nose. The rabbits die of a brain hemorrhage.

 

[Zass]

Do these symptoms look familiar?

Animals with Tyzzer's disease often have watery diarrhea, staining around the anal area, depression, dehydration, lethargy, and scruffy hair coats.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 9&aid=2846

I know it's rare, and I have no experience with it myself.

If it's what you have though, it looks difficult to diagnose and even more difficult to treat.

How is Tyzzer's disease treated?

There is no specific therapy that will kill C. piliforme, although tetracycline is often administered. Treatment is generally aimed at supportive care including fluids, good nutrition, and providing the optimal temperature and humidity. In young and stressed animals, treatment is usually unsuccessful.

 

[squidpop]

Here's another thread someone posted on this site, it has autopsy photos bacterial enteritis
you could compare what you are seeing the photos. various-rabbit-diseases-graphic-t14782.html There's an autopsie photo of Tyzzer's disease too.

 

[Zass]

That's odd. Wikipedia mentions grayish yellow necrotic lesions, and that site pictures some very colorful meaty looking spots for the same disease.

from wikipedia:

During necropsy, inflammation of the ileum, cecum, and colon are commonly present.[8] Perhaps the most distinctive trait of this disease, however, is the grayish yellow necrotic lesions found on the liver of diseased animals.[7] The number of these spots present can range from one to countless.[7] Occasionally, lesions are discovered in the lower intestinal tract and heart as well.[7] Even with physical signs and symptoms present, a conclusive diagnosis is dependent upon the presence of C. piliforme within the liver of the infected animal.[7]

Whatever it is. I'm starting to agree with others, that is may be best to just destroy your stock and start over. Or perhaps have a veterinarian try and provide a specific diagnosis?

It's a shame that new rabbits often cost less than vets.

 

[GBov]

Just lost a nice long post so am going to do it again, only shorter :roll:

The only picture that matched was the cocci liver. That matched 100%!

I had cocci in a flock of young chickens that the only signs of illness was a perfectly lively bird would fall down, thrash a bit and die. Opened up they were full of blood. Corid saved two thirds of the flock.

With the matching picture of the liver, blood pooling inside like the chickens and the non working of Corid, could it be a Corid resistant strain of cocci? How common is the resistant strain?

Its a faint hope but if I dont have to dispatch and dispose of 83 rabbits this weekend while packing the U Haul truck I would be really REALLY happy!

 

[squidpop]

Have you tried using toltrazuril for the cocci yet?

 

[Miss M]

I've never heard of the blood pooling thing with cocci. Is that associated with it in rabbits?

 

[Dood]

How bad we're the livers? see pictures

In late stage liver disease the body is flooded with toxins - the rabbits go off feed and only want to drink and try to flush these poisons out of their sysyems which could cause the bile filled intestines, a secondary infection could be causing the diarrhea

You cannot cure hepatic/liver coccidia with medicine - the damage is permenant and treatments are only effective as preventative.

Survivor will all be carriers and does will pass the spores onto their offspring who must be kept away from fecal matter to avoid getting large doses of the parasite.

 

[GBov]

Have you tried using toltrazuril for the cocci yet?

I have a half bottle to try - gift of a friend - but its at the Florida house and the rabbits are still in Georgia. Do you think a 3 year old bottle of Toltrazuril will still be effictive? Stored at room temp and never in the sun. <br /><br /> -- Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:46 am -- <br /><br />

How bad we're the livers? see pictures

In late stage liver disease the body is flooded with toxins - the rabbits go off feed and only want to drink and try to flush these poisons out of their sysyems which could cause the bile filled intestines, a secondary infection could be causing the diarrhea

You cannot cure hepatic/liver coccidia with medicine - the damage is permenant and treatments are only effective as preventative.

Survivor will all be carriers and does will pass the spores onto their offspring who must be kept away from fecal matter to avoid getting large doses of the parasite.

The liver had about 5 or 6 white patches. Will Toltraz. not work on hepatic coccidia?

 

[Dood]

The liver had about 5 or 6 white patches.

not too terrible then so i think a secondary ifection is causing the deaths. I've opened up rabbits with more white than red in their livers and was amazed they were still walking so it does take quite a bit of liver damage to kill them.

Will Toltraz. not work on hepatic coccidia?

I'm not familiar with this drug - What is the active ingredient? How long have you been treating with it?

 

[GBov]

The liver had about 5 or 6 white patches.

not too terrible then so i think a secondary ifection is causing the deaths. I've opened up rabbits with more white than red in their livers and was amazed they were still walking so it does take quite a bit of liver damage to kill them.

Will Toltraz. not work on hepatic coccidia?

I'm not familiar with this drug - What is the active ingredient? How long have you been treating with it?

I dont off hand know the active ingredient of toltrazadil and, as I am jumping on the computer as a break from loading the huge truck I dont have time to look it up right now. Shall do so next time I wilt from the heat :lol: My understanding of the drug is that it KILLS the cocci organism outright but I dont know if it works against all forms of cocci.

Feel free to chime in if y'all know though. opcorn:

 

[squidpop]

Will Toltraz. not work on hepatic coccidia?

I'm not familiar with this drug - What is the active ingredient? How long have you been treating with it?

I've been reading up on Toltrazuril, (sold as Baycox Toltrazuril and Marquis Ponazuril) for a while and it seems like no matter which forum I'm on people are giving it really positive reviews for treating cocci. It is a drug that was originally invented to treat a protozoal infection in horses.

Dana Krempels the Phd. from University of Miami Vet Medicine who writes all the rabbit medical papers online recommends it for coccidiosis.

However, we have found a more recently developed drug, ponazuril (active ingredient toltrazuril) to be far superior to the aforementioned sulfa antibiotics. It eliminates the parasites in a matter of days, rather than weeks. http://rabbit.org/the-mystery-of-rabbit-poop/

There are also convincing testimonials from people who have used it on this dairy goat forum (link below) and the people all say the toltrazuril works better than everything else they have tried. They say it kills all stages of the lifecycle of the coccidiosis parasite, while other drugs like Corid and Albon only kill one stage, so the toltrazuril works faster and the treatment period is shorter. http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f19/does-c ... dia-34049/

Toltrazuril is sold under the name Marquis Ponazuril and Baycox Toltrazuril.
The cheapest place to buy the toltrazuril is here: http://horseprerace.com/toltrazuril(Com ... ycox%C2%AE)/toltrazuril-for-epm-200ml/





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-- Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:14 pm --

I have a half bottle to try - gift of a friend - but its at the Florida house and the rabbits are still in Georgia. Do you think a 3 year old bottle of Toltrazuril will still be effictive? Stored at room temp and never in the sun.

I did a quick google- "Shelf life toltrazuril" and google results seemed to indicate it has a short shelf life -- only 1 to 2 years. So probably not worth wasting time on the 3 year old bottle. Its only about $45 a bottle from here http://horseprerace.com/toltrazuril(Com ... ycox%C2%AE)/toltrazuril-for-epm-200ml/

*** All that said... I'm thinking it might be best to get a Vet to test one of the diseased rabbits for Coccidiosis and Clostridium piliforme (Tyzzer's Disease). Clostridium also causes spots on the liver, watery diarrhea, bloating, so with your rabbits it sounds like it could be either one of those diseases.

 

[GBov]

It turns out that the bottle is only just under 2 years old so it should be fine to use. Now, next problem is, what is the dosage for rabbits and do I have to syringe it into each of the 83 remaining rabbits or can I put it into the water buckets and bottles?

I just about managed to figure out - with help - the corid dosage but the directions on Toltrazadil are even harder to figure out and with a brain full of moving/packing/cleaning and LOTS of driving, I am defeated before starting! :lol:

 

[squidpop]

On this site http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/squirts.pdf it says....

Anticoccidial medication:
1. Ponazuril/toltrazuril (20mg/kg Q 24 hours) (I think Q means "every" 24 hours)

And on this other site, http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/ ... azuril.htm, it talks about the dosage....
We have used ponazuril to treat coccidia at a dose of anywhere between 20 - 50mg/kg with good success. Since we have seen no adverse side effects at the higher dose, and have seen some survival of coccidia at the lower doses, we now routinely use the drug at 50mg/kg for domestic rabbits with coccidiosis.

But I'm not sure how many days? One site said dose for 2 days and thats all. But on another forum someone said they dosed for 2 days, then break for 5 days, and a last dose for 2 days.

So, that's all I found on the dosage so far.

-- Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:15 pm --

Gbov, the two sources I found for the dose of 20mg/kg were from Dana Krempel the Phd. in Vet Medicine who specializes in rabbits and writes for the House Rabbit Society who seems to have treated a lot of rabbits with that dose rate or higher (as she says above). And, I also found the same dose info on the site that sells toltrazuril, 20mg/kg here, http://www.allthingsbunnies.com/product-p/med132.htm

And, I have also, dosed one of my rabbits with 20mg/kg and he is just fine now.

But!!! I am finding conflicting information on the dosage rate, some sites are saying 2.5mg to 5mg/kg as the dose rate. And that's a big difference.

I found the dose rate of 2.5 to 5mg/kg on the medirabbit site http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_disease ... occ_en.htm

So, you will have to either look for more info on the dose rate or just go with one.

-- Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:53 pm --

----------------------------

I emailed Ph.D Dana Krempel about the conflicting dosage information and she wrote me back and said....

We have found that for the Eimeria [coccidia] commonly infecting domestic rabbits, the parasites often do not die off significantly until we use 50mg/kg. We dose for seven days, once a day.

The 2.5mg/kg seems very low to me, but perhaps the Eimeria they have in Switzerland (where Medirabbit is housed) are less resistant than ours in the U.S.

Dana <br /><br /> -- Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:17 pm -- <br /><br /> ***** Also, the variation in the dose rate may have to do with which brand of toltrazuril you are using*****
***** Also, The totrazuril for pigeons 2.5% is reported to be toxic to rabbits.