crossing angora breeds

[Zinnia]

Tell me about crossing angora breeds, please. I have both Satin and French. I have seen that other people sometimes cross these two breeds. What benefits or problems might I expect?

I have already done the crossing with two does. One kindled today and one will by morning. I am devoted to keeping some of the best for wool and eating what I don't like. So, this experiment will have value to me either way. I just want to know more about why people do or don't cross them.

Thanks!

 

[imajpm]

I think crossing Satin's with other angora breeds is generally an attempt to increase wool density, or perhaps to add colors that you don't have when another satin is not available. It's easiest to cross molters with molters and non with non, otherwise you can get rabbits who partially molt. I have one of those and it really detracts from the wool quality with the new coat coming in all over the place and parts of the coat requiring shearing. I generally don't use her wool much. She is basically just a pet.

You can cross molters with nons but then you have multiple generations of work getting back to whatever type of coat your aiming for. Some cross the super dense non molting Germans with Satins, then breed back to Satin, to increase density. Your Satin/French cross kits will have no sheen, but will carry it. They will need to be bred back to the parent, a full sibling, or another satin, to recover the sheen.

 

[Dood]

You will also loose the satin as it is a recessive gene, all the kits will be carriers but will have fur like the other angora parent.

If you sell any of these kits and they are bred the buyers could be in for a surprise if satins unexpectedly show up in the nest box

 

[Zinnia]

My Satin buck has denser wool than some of my French. :shock: But, I know many Satins lack density.

So, if I should want to hold back any kits to breed back into separate breed lines (some to Satins and some to French), I would stick to doing so for a few generations. I cull hard, since we eat the meat. So, I would only keep what I thought would be as good or an improvement over what I started with. The Satin buck has dense wool, nice growth and size, while the French doe is hardier for my climate than this line of Satin.... The other pairing is with an unproven Satin buck. I really just wanted to figure out what he carries, but he is also a little less hardy than my French. He has much better body type than the doe I bred him to. So, I'm just experimenting and very willing to cull hard or even completely, if it's not a success.

Can you tell me genetically how the sheen or density genes work in rabbits? I'm keen on the color genes, but not sure on the rest. I assume I would breed the nicest kits back to another adult of whichever breed I want to set the type for. Theoretically, I could breed kit 1 back to an unrelated Satin and kit 2 back to an unrelated French and keep that up for a few generations until it falls off the pedigree - all provided that I like what I see in the kits better than one of the parent lines....

Please tell me if I am overlooking something... if there is anything else I should consider. Or any hard-fast rules on what not to do. I feel very good about this experiment, but I want to respect the fact that others may feel that crossing two breeds needs to be done with serious consideration. So, I would love to hear RT advice.

__________ Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:22 am __________

You will also loose the satin as it is a recessive gene, all the kits will be carriers but will have fur like the other angora parent.

If you sell any of these kits and they are bred the buyers could be in for a surprise if satins unexpectedly show up in the nest box

Indeed! So, if breeding a kit back to French for a few generations isn't enough, I will need to tell potential buyers (if I sell these lines) that I began with Satin Angoras and to watch for that? <br /><br /> __________ Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:08 am __________ <br /><br /> So, if I test bred a cross generations away from the original litter with a Satin that obviously will have the satin gene (this is what makes the sheen, right?).... and the result is a litter with no sheen at all, I could assume there is no recessive satin in that crossed rabbit?

 

[Dood]

A single litter would not be a guarantee that the satin gene is not carrierd but even 5 litters may not be proof enough - I had a magpie buck that I was certain didn't carry non-extension as he'd never fathered torts or sable points with does who were know carriers but kit number 23 was a tort :shock:

As Sky's the Limit likes to say "recessives are forever" :mrgreen:

 

[imajpm]

Yes, that recessive satin gene could hang on a very long time. I've got 5 generations of chocolate standard satins and all of a sudden rew popped up. You could test breed with satins at various points to see if you've lost it but one litter won't be enough to verify :lol:

 

[Zinnia]

Thank you for explaining that, Dood. If I continue to play around with crossing the two breeds, maybe it would be smart to give an extended pedigree if I sell any as breeding stock. I rather doubt I will be selling any stock from these guys, but it would be nice to have all the information available in case any find their way into another breeder's hands. I dislike surprises (although I learned best when hit with one!). So, I'll be sure not to surprise anyone else.

A couple more questions:

Would there be less incidence of recessive surprises in future French generations from these crossed kits, or in the Satins?

I think I am understanding that the French may pop up with satiny coats if I'm not careful... anything else recessive in the crosses that will affect future French lines?

I could not be surprised by lack of sheen in Satins because it is recessive and would choose a high sheen, second generation kit to keep in the Satin lines.... any other things to look out for as it would affect the Satin lines? <br /><br /> __________ Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:57 am __________ <br /><br />

Yes, that recessive satin gene could hang on a very long time. I've got 5 generations of chocolate standard satins and all of a sudden rew popped up. You could test breed with satins at various points to see if you've lost it but one litter won't be enough to verify :lol:

I'm lucky to have ample recessive colored stock for test breeding colors. I'm more concerned about the genes that define Satin from French setting in the wrong places. Is the Satin (sheen) gene the only genetic difference that matters in the two breeds? If not, what are the others?

 

[imajpm]

Yeah my chocolates are great for color testing, and filling the freezer

I think that the satin gene is the main difference between the two. French angora were used to create the Satin angora breed so they should not be too far off. I don't have Satin Angoras myself but the Standard of Perfection ought to give up any major differences. It's possible that body structure has been changed over time to develop for show standards.

I've got a standard satin who carries a long hair gene of some type and I've just started a project with him and my Germans. Should be interesting to see how they end up when using a different angora breed. The advantage of French though, is that they molt and maintain strong color. I may have to end up choosing molters over non from this project :lol: