Color conundrums

[judymac]

A friend sent me photos of two mystery kits. I have never raised sable or steel rabbits, so if those genetics are involved, I have no idea how the colors develop from birth. Can you help us identify these colors please? The first one has chocolate as the base color, but is this steel ticking? Parents are sable pearl (sable pearl x chocolate agouti) and high rufus chocolate (HR chocolate out of harlequin lines x fawn).


The mystery kit is on the left, a normal chocolate on the right:




The second mystery is a pair of kits from a blue x high rufus chocolate agouti mating. They looked like opal and lynx at first, but now. . .


There's a chance there is also harlequin in the background.
This is the last one: (note: the white areas on the top kit's rump and bottom kit's spine are actually just sunlight spots.)

How do steel and sable kits mature from newborn to adult coat, color-wise?

 

[Alaska Satin]

A friend sent me photos of two mystery kits. I have never raised sable or steel rabbits, so if those genetics are involved, I have no idea how the colors develop from birth. Can you help us identify these colors please? The first one has chocolate as the base color, but is this steel ticking? Parents are sable pearl (sable pearl x chocolate agouti) and high rufus chocolate (HR chocolate out of harlequin lines x fawn).
View attachment 35004 View attachment 35005

This makes me think steel, honestly as much out of a process of elimination as anything. At this age I wouldn't expect to see agouti rings, but this kit doesn't appear to have light markings in its inner ears, so I don't think it's an agouti. Silvering comes in at a much later age than this, and it doesn't emerge so uniformly, so I'd eliminate <si>. Sables do go through a phase where the hairs look silvery-tipped, but it doesn't look like distinct ticking, it's more like a satiny sheen. Which leaves steel. Does the kit have a light belly, or is it roughly the same color as the back?

I've never had a chocolate steel, but that would be my guess. The only thing that confuses me is that to present as a steel, the animal has to be an agouti <A>, and I can't figure out how that could have happened from sable pearl x chocolate. You're sure the dam was a sable pearl (which I'm assuming refers to what I know as smoke pearl, <aaB_cchl_ddE_>), not something like a smoke pearl chin <A_B_cchl_ddE_> which looks pretty similar and could easily result from a smoke pearl x choc agouti cross?

Smoke pearl <aaB_cchl_ddE_>:


Smoke pearl chinchilla <A_B_cchl_ddE_> :

Both images above are from Coat Color Photo Matrix

The mystery kit is on the left, a normal chocolate on the right:
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This looks pretty clearly like a chocolate sable to me. The shimmery frosting look at this stage is a classic sable phase. That subtle ruby glow in the eye is also a sable giveaway, although that can come from chocolate as well.

The second mystery is a pair of kits from a blue x high rufus chocolate agouti mating. They looked like opal and lynx at first, but now. . .
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There's a chance there is also harlequin in the background.

These are tricky for me given the colors of their parents. Without knowing their background I'd suspect sable chin for the one on the left and maybe lilac sable agouti on the right, since sable starts out looking bluish but then develops that smoky tinge as it develops. But I could also believe squirrel and/or lilac chin, especially after watching the unusual (to me) development of the squirrel I currently have in my barn.

How do steel and sable kits mature from newborn to adult coat, color-wise?

Steels are born solid-looking, sometimes with a very slightly lighter-hued nape triangle. The ticking shows up fairly quickly (in a week or two it's obvious), and in my experience it comes in uniformly rather than in patches like silvering.

Sable goes through some dramatic changes as the color develops. I posted a photo series of black-based sable development on this thread: Good rabbit beginner color genetic page?

 

[judymac]

This is the mama of the chocolate sable kit, she's listed as sable pearl:

Does the kit have a light belly, or is it roughly the same color as the back?

The belly is the same color:

I really appreciate your help with this. I've had rabbits for over four decades, but never steel or sable.

 

[Alaska Satin]

This is the mama of the chocolate sable kit, she's listed as sable pearl:
View attachment 35029

Well, I'm not sure about her. The angora wool throws me, but assuming a much more diluted body color due to the wool, that does look like it could be smoke pearl. Except... there's that white around the nose and lips, which is pretty suspicious since I don't think I've ever seen a self like that. I'd suspect either agouti or tan pattern, although on the other hand the ears don't seem to have the lacing of either. ??? Also, I'm wondering about what seems like an extremely dark face marking, more like a sable point (non-extension sable) than a smoke pearl (which is a dilute sable).

The combination of pointed patterns leaving so little color, the dramatic variations possible in the intensity of sable colors, and the wool effectively diluting body color, leaves so little to go on... I know I'm not being much help at all! What other colors were in her litter with the self chocolate buck?

The belly is the same color:
View attachment 35030

That one looks like a chocolate sable, which is a self and would make sense whether she was a sable, a sable point, or smoke pearl, all selfs, or even if she was a smoke pearl chin carrying a recessive self allele.

But the one I was asking about belly color was the first one, the one that looks like steel, which would need an agouti <A> that could not come from the self chocolate sire, so must have come through the doe.

Did this kit start out looking like a normal self chocolate, before developing the ticking after a week or so? Or did it look like a very faded chocolate? If it is a steel, I'm wondering if it could possibly be a sable steel rather than a chocolate steel. On my screen, the base color looks more sepia than chocolate.

I'd love it if you would post photos as these kits develop! I've never seen a chocolate sable angora, or even a black-based sable angora, for that matter, nor a steel angora!

 

[judymac]

But the one I was asking about belly color was the first one, the one that looks like steel,

Yup, that is the belly of the first one. the one that looks steel. Such an interesting conundrum isn't it? It's the same kit as the sable looking one (photo taken just a little older), and yes, it was chocolate at birth.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Yup, that is the belly of the first one. the one that looks steel. Such an interesting conundrum isn't it? It's the same kit as the sable looking one (photo taken just a little older), and yes, it was chocolate at birth.

I thought they were two different kits! Perhaps chocolate sable steel, then? Or even just chocolate sable? I've never seen such dramatic ticking on a developing sable, but maybe the combination of the chocolate base and the different structure of the wool shaft combines to make the typical "shimmer" look more like actual ticking.

Here are some photos (very poor, sorry, my camera does not like macros) of the black gold tipped steel Satin kit I have at the moment. He looked like a self black at birth; in these photos he's about three weeks old. I'll try to get my daughter to help me take some better photos.

 

[judymac]

That's very helpful, gives me a time frame for when to expect to see the ticking. It makes perfect sense, that's about when that part of the banding is developed in the coat--not sure why I didn't think of that. The ticking is just the middle band of the agouti hairshaft, pushed out to the end by the steel gene.

 

[Alaska Satin]

That's very helpful, gives me a time frame for when to expect to see the ticking. It makes perfect sense, that's about when that part of the banding is developed in the coat--not sure why I didn't think of that. The ticking is just the middle band of the agouti hairshaft, pushed out to the end by the steel gene.

I'm still mystified about how you could have got a steel out of two selfs. The pointed/shaded dam is even more interesting to me at this point. It's got to be her that the agouti came through, but I just can't make her be a sable chin...! Is there any hint of agouti in her color (other than the white lips/nostrils)? Does she have otter/marten markings on her hind feet, like this?


It is amazing how similar gold-tipped steels and chestnuts can look, other than the "trim" being missing on the steel. My GTS kit has pretty distinct banding now, but he's not finished in his color development and I don't think he will retain this banded look. Usually steels end up looking more like he did at three weeks, more of a 2-toned undercolor-plus-outer color, with some tipping.
Here are better photos of him, now 4 weeks old, plus another cool variation below.


So that's the GTS. But his brother is, I'm pretty sure, a self steel. I can only surmise this because I know my Satin lines so well, and this kit is subtly but distinctly different from all of my blacks, including his self black brother. Within a few days of birth he was looking like he might be a seal, i.e. just the slightest bit off-black compared to his self brother, but I knew he wasn't seal because I have no sable in my Satin herd. I'm not sure if it shows on the screen or not, but he has the very faintest haze of gold across his back, shoulders and especially around his collar. It is not satin sheen. In the second picture you can see the comparison between him and his self black sib at the top of the photo. (You can also see the sort-of nape triangle on the GTS.)

 

[judymac]

the second picture you can see the comparison between him and his self black sib at the top of the photo.

Fascinating. So helpful to see how this is playing out in the growing coat, thanks so much for posting the photos.

 

[judymac]

This is the dad to the sable litter, a high rufus chocolate buck:

And this is his litter with the mystery sable/steel kit, new photos taken today:




Looks like a black, dark sable, ermine, chocolate, and the mystery sable/steel looking kit, which is looking much more sable and much less steel at this point:

 

[Alaska Satin]

This is the dad to the sable litter, a high rufus chocolate buck:
View attachment 35097
And this is his litter with the mystery sable/steel kit, new photos taken today:
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Looks like a black, dark sable, ermine, chocolate, and the mystery sable/steel looking kit, which is looking much more sable and much less steel at this point:
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Yes, I'd agree, that 'frosted" look says sable all the way! In these last photos he looks totally sable, actually like a sable point (non-extension sable), which would make sense if you also got an ermine. He doesn't look anything like a steel in these pics.

So, I am relieved at not having to struggle through figuring out how to get a steel from two selfs...

I just found a really interesting page that applies to your two little sable guys:

Watch Me Grow Up: Holland Lop - Siamese Sable/Sable Point​

English Angoras

home site

www.gbfarm.org

The GB Farm sable point at 12 days looks a lot like yours, false "ticking" and all. The siamese sable (aka sable) looks quite a bit different at 6 days from my sables, though; while he's a deep chocolate, mine were paler and still bluish. Although they were starting to move toward more chocolatey colors at that point, they were never that dark.

Unrelated question: How are you getting high-rufus chocolates?

 

[ladysown]

So that's the GTS. But his brother is, I'm pretty sure, a self steel. I can only surmise this because I know my Satin lines so well, and this kit is subtly but distinctly different from all of my blacks, including his self black brother. Within a few days of birth he was looking like he might be a seal, i.e. just the slightest bit off-black compared to his self brother, but I knew he wasn't seal because I have no sable in my Satin herd. I'm not sure if it shows on the screen or not, but he has the very faintest haze of gold across his back, shoulders and especially around his collar. It is not satin sheen. In the second picture you can see the comparison between him and his self black sib at the top of the photo. (You can also see the sort-of nape triangle on the GTS.)
View attachment 35044 View attachment 35045

this is what my steels often look like too, at least until they get older and I get more colour around their front legs, behind the head and such like.

 

[judymac]

How are you getting high-rufus chocolates?

My friend said she started with a harlequin and a fawn (she didn't say which one was high rufus), and kept the kits with the most red. I know that you can tell her high rufus chocolates from the regular chocolates--standard chocolate just has the brown tint, while the HR chocolates have this lovely brighter shade, especially noticeable in the nestbox. If you look at the photo above of the HR chocolate dad, you can see a bit of that brighter, more rufus shade on his forehead.

There seems to be a special link between chocolate and rufus. Chocolate torts tend to have cleaner, brighter coats. Many use chocolate in their orange breeding programs for the same reason. I have no idea what the connection is.

 

[Alaska Satin]

My friend said she started with a harlequin and a fawn (she didn't say which one was high rufus), and kept the kits with the most red. I know that you can tell her high rufus chocolates from the regular chocolates--standard chocolate just has the brown tint, while the HR chocolates have this lovely brighter shade, especially noticeable in the nestbox. If you look at the photo above of the HR chocolate dad, you can see a bit of that brighter, more rufus shade on his forehead.

There seems to be a special link between chocolate and rufus. Chocolate torts tend to have cleaner, brighter coats. Many use chocolate in their orange breeding programs for the same reason. I have no idea what the connection is.

That's really interesting. I did notice the red tint to your buck's color; it's beautiful.

Satin breeders use chocolates in their red programs because chocolate smut is less obvious than black smut.

Of course the goal is no smut at all, but on the way there it's nice to have show-quality rabbits. I can vouch for the fact that chocolate-based red does indeed look cleaner than black-based red, at least in the first few generations. I have been using chocolates in my red program recently. (But I wish I didn't have to, because they tend to have paler eyelids and lashes, and I really like the dark-lashed doe-eyed look on agoutis. )

Here's a 2nd-gen black-based red buck, and a 2nd-gen chocolate-based red doe - you can see the difference in the clarity of the red color. Even though you can't see the doe's face, there's no smut there either (unless you look really hard, and then you can see the chocolate tipping, especially her ears).