Colony Fight

[kotapony]

We ended up having to butcher another rabbit Christmas eve. Everyone was fine in the morning when I fed, but that evening when they converged on me at evening feeding, I noticed blood on the backside of one of the older kits. My first fear was bloody poo, but once I picked her up for a better look I saw she had a couple big holes (one about silver dollar size) ripped in her hide clear through to the muscle. I didn't pick everyone else up to examine them, but didn't see any evidence of injury just from looking around the colony.

 Once I saw the tear I thought maybe I'd mis-sexed one and that this was actually a buck that senior buck had taken offense to (we butchered all 4 other bucks a few days previously). They're 11.5 weeks old now which seemed young for fighting, but I thought maybe. But no, I'm pretty well sure this was a doe (hubby forgot to confirm for me when he butchered her). I looked hard at the colony, but my setup is pretty simple. I saw no evidence she caught on something and hurt herself, nor anything sharp she even could've done so on. The wounds were about even with the top of her tail, off to one side, right where I could see her getting them if she was attacked from behind. The muscle itself wasn't badly damaged and if it had mattered I probably could have gotten her healed back up. But she was slated for the freezer next chance we got anyway. It's just left me a little skittish of what I'll find now when I check the colony. So far it's been quiet, and I'm hoping it will stay that way. 

As a side note, I only have one of everything in the colony right now: one hay feeder (refilled twice a day and always at least half full of good, clean hay), one water bowl (holds 1 gallon, changed twice a day), one free choice mineral block, and one 2 gallon bowl of corn silage (dumped and refilled twice daily). The rabbits all swarm me and surround the silage bowl when I fill it. There is room for everyone to eat at once, and I've never witnessed any squabbles over it. I don't think the colony is overcrowded. Up till last week I had 2 adults (buck and doe), 11 kits at 10 weeks old, and 6 kits at 4 weeks old. I have 90 square feet, and to my eyes that looked full but not overcrowded. A few days before this happened we butchered 4 of the older kits, so there was actually more space than there had been.

The senior buck I plan to pull from the colony by the end of the week. I want to keep one of the does from the older litter to replace the doe I lost a while back. That will still only give me 2 does in the colony, with my current plan to have the buck in for 3 weeks, then out for 3-4 weeks (in theory producing a litter every 6-7 weeks). And if I can get everyone butchered by 10-12 I wouldn't think the colony would get overcrowded. 

So anyway, right now I'm just holding my breath for a few more days hoping things stay quiet. At that point I figure I can call this incident an aberration and not worry about it. If it happens again I'll have to try harder to figure out who the bully is and maybe look at adding additional feeders.

 

[MaggieJ]

An additional feeder might be a good idea anyway... just divide the ration of corn silage between two bowls set several feet apart. I notice in our colony, our matriarch, Alice, is very tolerant, even welcoming, of kits from the adjoining pen (they can still fit through the divider) until someone shows up with food. Then she chases them back to their own side and they know she means business. She doesn't hurt them, but then they have somewhere to go to escape.

I'm not sure what "furniture" you have in your colony, Katie, but some tunnels, wooden crates etc. help to divide up the area so the rabbits don't have to be in each other's space all the time. Just something to consider.

 

[kotapony]

It's definitely not that I'm opposed to some furniture. They have one hay feeder than can hop into and crawl under and the nest tunnel they jump on top of. Right now that's it. I keep some hay in that hay feeder still, but don't refresh it often as it seemed like they ended up wasting a lot of the hay and it wouldn't hold enough to make sure they always had some fresh and clean. The new hay feeder I added they can't climb into, so I know the hay is always good to eat, but I don't then count the original as a hay feeder since I don't keep it refreshed.

It's more a matter of somehow the days slip by and I don't get done a fraction of what I'd hoped to accomplished. So getting the buns a more interesting environment has been on my to-do list, but hasn't managed to make it high enough to get done yet. I would agree bumping up the priority of adding second hay and silage feeders is probably a good idea. I'm about out of mash for my chickens so need to make a feed store run in the next few days anyway - I can pick up another bowl for silage then. Everything I have laying around is cow size, so too tall to use for the buns. But you're right - adding more furniture would be good generally and would also provide more places to get around and hide if one does get chased. I'm sure we have things around the farm I can use, I just need to keep a better eye out for what I can pilfer and recycle for the buns.

 

[akane]

If one set of kits is 4 weeks and you left the buck in the colony then your doe is ready to nest again soon. That's always when mine start turning on the young rabbits. They want to defend their nesting site even when they are just scoping things out and thinking of possibly taking various sites. This is when we get all the spats, territory disputes, and have lost some kits. We haven't had injuries in the colony only some lost fur or complete death by broken necks when it comes to kits who wandered in to nesting areas. Most of those seem to actually be accidents. The doe doesn't realize how little force it takes to run the young rabbits off and smashes them or jerks them sideways causing neck or internal injuries that lead to death. Once the nesting site is established and everyone learns to stay away from it the problems go away.

 

[kotapony]

I *think* I got the buck out last time right before the doe kindled. I'd been hoping to leave him in, but in the end I don't have enough does/space to keep him distracted. The doe built her nest, and right about that time the buck started trying to hump her endlessly from any angle he could come at her. She seemed thoroughly annoyed at him every time he tried. I looked in the nest then and didn't see any kits, but I didn't dig deep into it, either. I found the kits the next day tucked tight in the nest ball. I'm still learning, so I can't swear I didn't miss the kits when I looked the day I took the buck out. I kept him out a little over two weeks. I just looked back, and my last kits were born Nov 22 which makes them 34 days today. So either the doe is still 2 weeks out or I have kits in the nest box. I'd probably better check and make sure, just in case. :shock:

Thank you both for the thoughts.

 

[Bramble Hedge]

I would probably be looking at your senior does as the culprits, they can be pretty nasty when they want to. Sometimes they will even gang up on one rabbit.

 

[kotapony]

I only have one adult doe in there right now. I started with two (from the same litter, never separated) and she got along well with her sister until the sister died right before the last kits were born (so about 5 weeks ago now; I'm still not entirely sure what killed her, but it was definitely illness of some sort). But even my senior doe isn't very old. She was born April 4th, making her almost 8 months old, and is now expecting her third litter. She's extremely mellow around me, and has never shown even a hint of aggression when I mess with her nest. She doesn't even care when "strangers" (like hubby - I do all the rabbit care so they don't really know him) come into the colony to check out the nest. I realize that it may have been her all the same and honestly that is what has me a little nervous. As I posted earlier, I'm hoping to keep a doe out of this group of kits to keep so I end up with 2 breeding does in the colony. And that only works if senior doe accepts whoever I choose to keep. At this point, all I can do is follow the suggestions to add some furniture and second feeding areas, and hope it doesn't happen again. If it does, I'll reassess my options then. But the senior doe I have is great. I went ahead and bred her at 5 months, and right from the start she's bred easily, made wonderful nests and I haven't lost a kit yet. And, as I said, she's completely docile with people, always has been. So even if it does turn out to be her, I'll come up with some other plan to make things work.

I'm still learning the ins and outs of a colony (of rabbits in general for that matter), and I'm making my share of mistakes. But even so, I wouldn't trade for cages. It makes me smile every time I see the buns hopping around free (so to speak, at least), and getting to walk in with them and get swarmed over at feeding time, well, it's just cool.

 

[MaggieJ]

We have a small colony. Most of the time we keep it divided into two floor pens, but we can open it up into one. We have a doe, sometimes two, on each side. The buck "commutes" between the two pens. When the does are near kindling, we pull him out and put in the other side, or occasionally in a cage for a few weeks if the does need a rest. This has worked quite well for us... but I wish we had more room for another couple of pens.

 

[kotapony]

Splitting the colony is certainly a valid option for me and one I've thought hard about doing anyway. I may still try it at some point for the ability to move the buck back and forth rather than have him isolated. I've spent hours thinking about the pros and cons either way. 

I really don't like the idea of having to take the doe to the buck. I like leaving him in there to get the job done on his own, without having to guess if the doe took in a given breeding session or not. That is one of the biggest pluses to a colony for me. 

Given that, if I leave one big colony I have to isolate the buck for a while at kindling time. And both does are then bred and kindle together. That's nice if for some reason I need to try to foster. On the down side, it makes it hard to keep track of whose kits are whose (not that it overly matters in my situation but it would be nice to know at times) and it puts all the kits at the same size. That puts more pressure on the colony space as they grow and leaves me with a lot to deal with at butchering time. On the up side, they have the whole space to move around in.

On the other hand, you can pretty much reverse all the pros and cons if I split the colony. I'd like being able to rotate the buck, and knowing for sure when each doe kindles and how many she had would be really nice. I lose any possibility to foster kits. But so far my doe is a really good mom, I'm not breeding anything special, and given the other pressures and time constraints on my life I've already decided that nature is pretty much going to dictate which kits live; I just don't have time to put a lot into raising kits if something goes wrong. It also halves the space available to each colony.

In all the hours I've spent pondering this, my biggest drawbacks are the pain of stepping over a divider to care for the second colony, not having as big an area for each one, and the worry that the does might not get along to combine the two back if I decide I don't like having them split.

*sigh* I can't have it both ways and really do remain torn. I'll just have to ponder on it some more, unless fighting does make the choice for me.

Oh, and I checked. No new kits yet.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

How about two more does? If space is an issue, maybe the new does could be mini-rex... they are supposed to be really good foster moms. You might need a little rex buck then, too. Yup... problem solved- tell the Hubs you need 3 more bunnies! :lol:

 

[Bramble Hedge]

At worst case scenario I would think if you kept a doe kit from your senior doe she would be quite accepting of it.

 

[kotapony]

I believe all these kits are from the senior doe. At least, they were all born and raised in a single nest. None have ever left the colony.

The thing is, when I still had two does I bred them both at the same time. When it came time to kindle, only one nest appeared and all 11 kits showed up in it at once. I never could catch either doe feeding the kits or even really seeming greatly more interested in the nest when I checked it. So I can't honestly say for sure if all these kits belonged to my still living doe, if the two does kindled together and shared a nest, or if they all came from the now deceased doe. I'm not inclined to believe the last possibility as I know for sure my second litter came right on schedule from the still living doe. The doe that died had been with the buck for 3 weeks and was not bred (I did a necropsy on her after she died).

That is what has me so surprised. The doe that was injured was young, and everyone in the colony has been there since birth. It seems most of the time when I read about problems it's from introducing a new member to the colony, not typically a younger animal that was born there.

So far all is still quiet. One day this week I plan to settle on which remaining doe I want to keep, and get the rest butchered. I'll also pull the buck so my replacement doe doesn't get bred yet. That will just leave the senior doe, a junior doe (12 weeks this Thursday), and 6 little ones (going on 5 weeks now). The colony is due to be cleaned anyway, so I'll get that done, add some furniture and second feeders, and hopefully that will keep things running smoothly.<br /><br />__________ Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:47 am __________<br /><br />So... turns out it was probably the buck. I'd just pulled out their silage tub yesterday night and was walking over to check the calf water when I heard a rabbit screaming. I look over, and see one of the adults clamped onto an older kits backside (right where the tear in the one I butchered was) getting drug across the colony as she tried to run. I got around where I could see better and it was definitely the buck that had a hold of her. Thankfully this kit hadn't been hurt. Of course I immediately got the buck and moved him back into his own cage (which was due to be done anyway). Any thoughts on that behavior? He's always seemed pretty mellow. Is he just wound up wanting to breed these girls who aren't old enough to be receptive yet (they'll turn 12 weeks on Thursday)? Or is this a personality thing I need to be worried about? He's just about to turn 8 months old.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

wow. thats not good.
well me being totally new to rabbits my guess from reading about them and my experience with goats is maybe you are right about him wanting to breed the youngunz. i know with goats that a buck can injure does trying to breed them. especially if there are real young does who arent big enough to breed yet.
how long was the buck in with the does for?
i would think maybe next time leave him in for only a short period then if you want to make sure he got all the does covered let him in again for a short period. that way he would be going after all the does and would be covering the receptive ones and not have time to bully the nonreceptive ones.
good luck!

 

[MaggieJ]

Some bucks are more aggressive breeders than others. He may have to have his own pen or cage for most of the time. He may calm down a bit as he gets older. He's a horny teenager at the moment, so to speak.

 

[kotapony]

Dirtball teenagers. He was going to have to stay by himself for a while anyway while my replacement doe grows up. Maybe by the time he can go back to the colony he'll have calmed back down. I suppose if it had to be one or the other, better the buck than senior doe. He was due to be pulled anyway.

Thanks Maggie.

 

[akane]

Keeping a whole bunch of 12 week old does around is a risk. They most definitely will become hormonal and the buck will most definitely start establishing himself and thinking about breeding. While they should be bred closer to 6 months they sometimes will breed much earlier. I've had kits out of 3month old smaller breed does. A 3-4month old larger breed doe getting bred would not be a shock. All previous times I've had trouble was when I had a bunch of 10-14week old does hanging around I hadn't gotten to butchering. They can make the mature doe territorial, the buck territorial and wanting to breed, they can get territorial with each other and younger kits... If you want or need to grow them out to that age I would suggest a 2nd colony or growout pen. I was having problems in 12x12'. With the divider down and back in 12x24' our problems mostly went away until we ended up with a bunch of 6month old does having their first litters. I think all the new mothers plus the bucks getting excited over breeding them again is what set off our second round of aggression. Now that the does are on at least their 2nd and 3rd litters they've calmed down a lot and so has everyone else. The bucks still get stirred up when a doe is ready to be bred again and the does still get territorial when nesting but aside from an issue with enough nesting sites and space around them (we are culling an adult doe before another round of litters) the problems have gone away again. Young does are just trouble if you crowd them at all and one of them can claim 1/4th of our 12x12' stalls if they get it in their head to do so. Then the bucks get set off by the maturing does.

 

[Truckinguy]

We have a small colony. Most of the time we keep it divided into two floor pens, but we can open it up into one. We have a doe, sometimes two, on each side. The buck "commutes" between the two pens. When the does are near kindling, we pull him out and put in the other side, or occasionally in a cage for a few weeks if the does need a rest. This has worked quite well for us... but I wish we had more room for another couple of pens.

I'm just curious about putting the bucks in with the does. I've always been under the impression that if you take the buck to the doe she can get territorial and hurt him. Does it work in a colony setting because the does have more room to get away from the buck than in a cage?

Typing all this on my iPhone is making my eyes go all wonky!

 

[akane]

Actually introducing bucks is the easiest part. They are not a part of the doe pecking order. They exist outside of the rules the does set up for themselves. The does will charge them at first but the bucks just turn around and hump their heads so the does give up after a few minutes and learn not to bother bucks in the colony. Instead there is just a lot of squeaking, grunting, and running away or flattening when a buck approaches and a doe doesn't want bred. Aside from the occasional grooming and the usual "this is my food container area right now" the does and bucks don't interact beyond the bucks checking if they can breed a doe and a doe agreeing or making a ruckus.