Buying Breeding Stock, How Close is Too Closely Related?

[KenoshaRabbits]

Hey guys, I am laying the ground work for buying breeding stock. (I will be raising rabbits for meat purposes). I plan on purchasing a trio of younger rabbits. 8-12 weeks old probably. I would like to buy from one breeder so I won't have to worry about spreading diseases/quarantine. I will be getting either New Zealand's Californians. I have not been able to find a large scale rabbitry in my area so I will most likely be buying from a small breeder. At this point I have concerns about the rabbits I buy being too closely related.
I know I wouldn't want all 3 being from the same litter. My guess is the person I buy from will do some sort of line breeding and that whatever I buy will be related in some manner. But, searching through the message boards I haven't been able to find out how close is too closely related (other than not from the same litter).

1) So how much diversity should there be between the rabbits. Do I need to worry about how closely related the does are to one another, or just how close the buck is to the does?

2) What are some good questions to ask the person I buy the rabbits form regarding this issue? While it would be great if this person could provide a full pedigree for any rabbit I buy, I'd like to prepare for a less than ideal situation. Such as poor/non-existent record keeping. or the person not having taken this issue into consideration.

Thanks
Mike

 

[Prisma]

I ask about relations, but that's because I like to have them related to specific rabbits I know well if possible. I don't care if they are siblings. If they match each other well, will breed. What I don't like the looks of, eat, keep ones I do for future breeding. I can weed out bad points faster.

If it were me, I'd look at the rabbits themselves. Choose the ones that fit what you want best, medium bone high dress weight good even flesh, doesn't matter how related. You're going to be breeding to eat, so should be none issue unless you're thinking of selling some later on. Some people do not and will not buy highly related rabbits as they feel its wrong, its a human feeling and condition not a must for the rabbits per say. They breed with whoever whenever possible if allowed to go on their own. I would make sure that litters born from close relations have been healthy and high survival rate, if they person you're buying from notes they are poor first time mothers and still have problems later, small litters, so so milking abilities, slow growth, high death rates...run away. You don't want some one else's head aches.

 

[SuburbanHomesteader]

I raise New Zealands - about half of my customers are just starting out raising meat rabbits and buy pairs or trios.

If you plan to just start out with a trio and then keep offspring to expand your rabbitry, then try to get does that are not sisters (same dam and sire). Next best is if they share only one parent. But even sisters would be okay. If you don't plan to expand beyond the trio, sisters are fine.

If possible, the buck should be from a different dam and sire. If he shares one parent, that's next best. I don't recommend that the buck have the same dam and sire as your doe(s).

There are many good articles online about "line breeding". Read up on that and then also read what you can about in-breeding. Two different things. You may have already done that. I guess that the best recommendation regarding "closeness" is that you avoid siblings - same dam and sire for the buck and does you get. But even that is only a suggestion.

While it may be a bit much to ask to see all of the records the breeder has on the rabbits you're looking to buy, he or she should at least have records and be able to answer questions and give you information regarding dam, sire, DOB, litter size, etc. Keep in mind that while pedigrees are nice, most of what makes for a good meat rabbit never shows up on the pedigree. You should be able to get a good feel for whether or not there's any record keeping going on. (In my book, the more the better. But that's me and I'm known to be a little "AR".)

I have a .pdf that I give to customers that answers questions about pedigrees. Most of the information it contains came directly from ARBA. (I still have their emails.) ARBA would be the only authority on pedigrees since they are the organization that registers rabbits. I'll see if I can attach it to this post.

If you are just starting out, find yourself an experienced reputable breeder. Then, as you gain knowledge and experience, you can take educated risks on animals offered for sale at swap meets, auctions, and the average backyard breeder.

Building a strong herd takes time - a superior herd takes longer. It will be up to you to keep the records and use that data to make the hard decisions. You'll improve your herd only through strict culling - keeping only the best and eating the rest. If you're looking just to feed your family or wanting to grow your herd to 100+ holes, it's the same process.

Hope that helps. Best of luck to you.

 

[alforddm]

I disagree that line breeding and in-breeding are two different things. The only difference is that some crosses are more excepted than others. For example a mother to son pairing is generally considered "line breeding" but is actually a bit closer than a full sibling cross which is considered "in-breeding". Either way your still trying to double up on the genes from a single animal. In breeding just gets you there alot faster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficie ... lationship

Rabbits seem to be very tolerant of inbreeding in general. My advice would be find a breeder who keeps good records on growth and houses and feeds their rabbits in a similar to how you will be housing and feeding. You also want a breeder who culls hard for health and mothering ability and who generally makes a point not to medicate their rabbits. Then not to worry if the rabbits you get are related or not. If at some point you start to have trouble with smaller litters and slower growth, then you can introduce new blood.

 

[mike17l]

Line breeding and inbreeding are very different things. Line breeding is done on purpose with a specific purpose, and occurs only at the direction of the breeder. Inbreeding occurs when there is little to no control on who breeds who, which can be the result of a careless breeder or naturally. Both line breeding and inbreeding concentrate genes, both good and bad genes. However, with line breeding, any genetic flaws are selected against. Rabbits do not tend to have bad genes show up because they have been line breed for so long. The vast majority of the bad genes have already surfaced and been removed from the gene pool.

 

[alforddm]

Linebreeding is a form of inbreeding. What is close inbreeding? Close inbreeding is the mating of close relatives. The closest form of inbreeding in domestic animals involves matings between full brothers and sisters (full siblings) and between parents and offspring (collectively called first-degree relatives).Mar 11, 2015

From http://kb.rspca.org.au/what-do-the-term ... n_334.html

 

[Prisma]

The vast majority of the bad genes have already surfaced and been removed from the gene pool.[/quote]


I wish this was 100% true. It's not, you still have to watch and cull problem offspring no matter how good in general might be compared to other animals. Bad teeth, split penis, pigeon breast, cow hocks are just a few that can show up faster with close breeding then be terminated. Some even warrent a start over when a particular nasty pops up.

 

[Ramjet]

I disagree that line breeding and in-breeding are two different things. The only difference is that some crosses are more excepted than others. For example a mother to son pairing is generally considered "line breeding" but is actually a bit closer than a full sibling cross which is considered "in-breeding". Either way your still trying to double up on the genes from a single animal. In breeding just gets you there alot faster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficie ... lationship

Rabbits seem to be very tolerant of inbreeding in general. My advice would be find a breeder who keeps good records on growth and houses and feeds their rabbits in a similar to how you will be housing and feeding. You also want a breeder who culls hard for health and mothering ability and who generally makes a point not to medicate their rabbits. Then not to worry if the rabbits you get are related or not. If at some point you start to have trouble with smaller litters and slower growth, then you can introduce new blood.

If I were to answer the OP's question the above is what I would have stated .... thanks for saving me the trouble.

 

[Rainey]

I've been following this thread--and have read others on the topic since joining RT--and I just see no consensus on this issue. Even how the terms are defined changes depending on the source. Clearly one can find "authorities" to support either position.
I'd like to hear from others who started with related rabbits, raised them for meat so there was lots of culling. How long have you been doing this and what problems have you encountered that might be attributed to inbreeding? At what point did you decide to bring in unrelated rabbits? Was that because you were seeing inbreeding related issues or because you wanted some color or type or whatever that your rabbits lacked?
I think I remember seeing posts from people who brought in new blood and regretted it and that information is also helpful although there you have the same risks as with starting up--any particular rabbit may have health or genetic problems.
At this point I'm pretty well committed to line breeding--on my third year. These threads make me wonder what problems I should be watching for.

 

[michaels4gardens]

I've been following this thread--and have read others on the topic since joining RT--and I just see no consensus on this issue. Even how the terms are defined changes depending on the source. Clearly one can find "authorities" to support either position.
I'd like to hear from others who started with related rabbits, raised them for meat so there was lots of culling. How long have you been doing this and what problems have you encountered that might be attributed to inbreeding? At what point did you decide to bring in unrelated rabbits? Was that because you were seeing inbreeding related issues or because you wanted some color or type or whatever that your rabbits lacked?
I think I remember seeing posts from people who brought in new blood and regretted it and that information is also helpful although there you have the same risks as with starting up--any particular rabbit may have health or genetic problems.
At this point I'm pretty well committed to line breeding--on my third year. These threads make me wonder what problems I should be watching for.

I have used the same genetics for as much as 15 years without bringing in outside blood, - and when i did bring in outside new blood it was a mistake, -- I had thought it would help me get an improvement-- but all it did was cause me to start over removing undesirable traits resulting from the cross.
I once knew an old man who had raised rabbits commercially for over 30 years, his rabbits were very productive and hard to beat for meat rabbits, he claimed to have the exact the same genetics he started out with -- he said he had never brought in any outside rabbits at all-- his rabbits looked like clones of each other-- he said the secret to breeding great rabbits was careful selection, and culling-- not bringing in outside bloodlines.

 

[skysthelimit]

I've been following this thread--and have read others on the topic since joining RT--and I just see no consensus on this issue. Even how the terms are defined changes depending on the source. Clearly one can find "authorities" to support either position.
I'd like to hear from others who started with related rabbits, raised them for meat so there was lots of culling. How long have you been doing this and what problems have you encountered that might be attributed to inbreeding? At what point did you decide to bring in unrelated rabbits? Was that because you were seeing inbreeding related issues or because you wanted some color or type or whatever that your rabbits lacked?
I think I remember seeing posts from people who brought in new blood and regretted it and that information is also helpful although there you have the same risks as with starting up--any particular rabbit may have health or genetic problems.
At this point I'm pretty well committed to line breeding--on my third year. These threads make me wonder what problems I should be watching for.

I've been breeding no where near as long as michaelsgardens, but all my stock is related. This is the start of year 5. Besides the occasional breed problems of not making weight and fur issues, I haven't seen any problems, actually they started getting better as I began to breed closer. Father to daughter where the dam of the daughter was the sires half sister was one of my best litters. I still get 9-12 kits and the weight is good for the breed. The rabbits have become more uniform, the shoulder shorters, fur denser, as long as I cull those that don't make the grade, runts, slow growers and generally sketchy animals.
I did bring in a new buck for more depth and color, but he is not outside of the original lines, his grandam is a sister to a doe I had here.

I need to find that article where is says you can inbreed for 20 odd generations with no genetic degradation. it's done all the time in lab rabbits. And the ARBA book shows how to make a line with a trio, first suggesting starting with sisters or closely related does.

Then there is the Brackett line breeding in dogs, which is what I followed when I first started breeding my rabbits.

It's easy to believe when one realizes line and inbreeding is how breeds are made.

 

[KenoshaRabbits]

Thanks to everyone who has provided their thoughts and experiences on the matter. I appreciate it.
I suppose the most relevant factor is the quality of the initial breeding stock. And perhaps this factor should outweigh the degree of relation.
And while it would be great to have 3 great rabbits that have different dams/sires; having 3 great rabbits is probably the best starting point. And since I plan on line-breeding when it comes time to replace stock I'm still going to have closely related rabbits eventually.

 

[Ramjet]

Thanks to everyone who has provided their thoughts and experiences on the matter. I appreciate it.
I suppose the most relevant factor is the quality of the initial breeding stock. And perhaps this factor should outweigh the degree of relation.
And while it would be great to have 3 great rabbits that have different dams/sires; having 3 great rabbits is probably the best starting point. And since I plan on line-breeding when it comes time to replace stock I'm still going to have closely related rabbits eventually.

The bold is the bottom line. :gnight:

 

[MrJacobTiffin]

How does all this work with pedigrees. Can yo still have a pedigree with inbreeding and line breeding.

 

[alforddm]

Yes, you just fill in the blanks with the parents and grandparents. They are still pedigreed even if the family tree doesn't fork.