Blue torts - why so different?

[powellanimals]

I have seen a few different variations of blue tort and I am trying to figure out what makes the genetic difference. Can someone help explain?

These are the blue torts I normally get. However, a judge has remarked that they are too mealy.

These is the other kind of blue tort I have seen. Looks like a black tort but just has lighter points. (Same rabbit/indoor and outdoor lighting)

What makes this difference in color? I understand torts need two recessive ee's but what else is contributing to this color difference?

Thank you!
Karolina

 

[Winterwolf]

The phenotype for blue torts is: aaB?C?ddee

I'm not sure what causes the variations in how it appears.

 

[Dood]

Are you sure the second picture are of blue torts? They look more like blue sable points to me :hmm:

 

[Prisma]

Bottom looks like blue points not blue torts. Bottom can't be blue tort, there's no "different" one, they can be lighter or darker to a point but no white/creamy color or pointed color.

 

[akane]

I know sables can look very different in different light while taking a picture. I had a tort that looked very different but she was also silvered and dim or sun light caused different amounts of silver to show up on camera. I don't know about regular blue torts. It can also be specific to a camera. The camera I use now likes to bring out a lot of brown when taking pics of gerbils in the room light. It's caused issues getting help determining silver from pointed before. Silvered gerbil colors are a range of grey and pointed versions of colors are a range of browns.

 

[powellanimals]

Yes it is a blue tort. Doing research it looks like the c locus may be causing the white undercoat (source: http://www.lalions.us/Tort.html).

Here is another one that looks different than the first blue one. http://www.mossyranch.com/lionhead-colors.html under 'Blue Tort.' This one looks like a black tort but with dilute points versus the all over blue. This is what I need to attempt to create but have no idea what I am trying to do.

Sorry for the links, I don't like to put up direct images that are not mine without permission.
Thank you for all of the help!

 

[alforddm]

Find a tort with good dark color and breed your blue tort to it. You will probably get all black torts (unless other recessives are present). Keep one of these with good color and then breed that offspring back to the blue tort. You should get some good blue torts in the second litter. (Hopefully)

That should increase your rufus factor giving you more of the intense red you wanting. Alternatively, you could breed your blue tort to a really good red and bred offspring back in the same way.

Dilute affects black pigments more than red pigments, which is why you can get blue points and still have a fairly red body.

It's all about modifiers. I've had tort so light I thought they might be torted otters but that doe never threw a regular otter when bred to a self so they had to have been regular torts, just really light. The same buck bred to a different doe has thrown dark torts. *shrug* There is still so much about genetics that we don't understand.

 

[Dood]

Okay

The colour genetics are the same = aa B C_ dd ee
but as Alforddm stated it is the modifiers, which the inheritance of is less understood, that makes the difference

Think of all different shades of red hair in people - technically they are all "red" but can vary from auburn to strawberry

 

[powellanimals]

Great to know it is a rufus modifier. Definitely helps me with figuring out what to work on in the color. Thank you tons!

 

[skysthelimit]

Another thought.

My torts are very light. I do have a problem with rufus, but also they carry the wideband gene.

 

[alforddm]

Wideband won't affect the amount of red pigment. It just adjusts the distribution. Good reds are supposed to have wideband. I'm not sure about torts.

 

[akane]

Yes it is a blue tort. Doing research it looks like the c locus may be causing the white undercoat (source: http://www.lalions.us/Tort.html).

From your link

We have a theory that this could be caused by the rabbit carrying an underlying shaded gene ("chd", "chl" or the elusive "chm") that wreaks havoc with the wool color and undercolor.

The chl would make sables that people were calling those 2nd pics in your original post. When you add ee found in reds and torts to the c colors you get what we call sallander which is considerably lighter and often with a different body pattern. Except ch. Ch is the himi gene and if they have 2 ch genes you will get a poorly marked himi instead. It's possible only having one recessive c gene could impact the color in more minor ways without the rabbit being considered anything but tort. Of course the shade of any color varies even with the same genotype (set of genes) but that could explain some of the larger differences you are seeing. Especially when the color is different between 2 types of a light.