Blue chin or smoke pearl? Confused..

[Disney]

I bred a blue rex doe with a red eyed white buck and got 3 kits that i am not sure about.

They are either 2 normal blues and the lighter color being self blue chin or smoke pearl.. or the darker ones are self blue chin and the lighter kit is smoke pearl or... i dont know anymore. :x

Some more info about the parents:
The doe aaBb_ddEe Pp is a chocolate, tort and lutino carrier. I knew that she carried a c-recessive because she has produced a white lutino before she came to me, but since my bucks are all C fullcolor, i never got any recessives until now. I purposely got a rew buck to testbreed with her and find her recessive but now i am even more confused and everyone i asked doesnt know either,.

The kits are 2 darker blue, 1 light blue, and 1 black. All are vienna marked so the rew buck is also a vienna carrier which was a surprise.

Light Blue #1.

Dark Blue #2.

Dark blue #3

 

[FourRingCircus]

There's a quote for this! "Clear as mud said the blind man to the deaf man over the phone" :lol: (Gotta love my 5th grade math teacher - I doubt she ever would have guessed that I would carry that phrase on well into adulthood )

I (obviously) am no help, but figured I would bump it up for you... and comment on the cutie pie kits

 

[Dood]

Very unusual

Statistically you should have gotten 50% REW from this buck and doe

Are you sure the doe produced a REW kit and not a pink eyed frosty = A_ __ cchd_ __ ee pp :hmm:

If she does indeed carry REW then all the kits must be self chinchilla (= aa __ cchd_ __ __ ) and the different shading is simply due to Rufus and/or umbrous factors as I do not think it is chocolate enough to be a lilac

 

[Disney]

No she doesnt carry rew and never produced one. She had a white lutino before, which would genetically be a chinchilla/sable chocolate lutino who loses its yellow pigment due the recessive c-gene and looks like an albino, when its not. She carries either chin or sable but most likely it is chin, since here siblings did produce chinchilla. I breed chocolate lutinos (champagne) and they are all yellow with the C fullcolor gene, but if you get them as chin or sable then they become white and represent a false rew. I am suspecting that the light blue kit is a chinchilla, since smoke pearl breeders have claimed that he doesnt resemble one and a self blue chin breeder said that it looked like her self blue chins. But i lastly would like to have your opinion on that.

 

[Dood]

Sorry, I misunderstood this statement " I knew that she carried a c-recessive ..." to mean she carried REW

So you mean she carries one of the 4 recessives on the C-locus - chin, sable, himi, REW

In that case I would definitely say smoke Pearl (blue sable) is a possibility as the sable gene often muddy's up the blue. I've posted a picture of one of my smoke pearl kits at 4 weeks old

I have a lot experience with chinchilla and blue chinchilla (AKA squirrel) and black self chin and blue self chin and that kit does not look like one to me

The blue kits cannot be self chin unless you think the dam is a self chin blue rex as she can only have 2 options on her C-locus but if her siblings produced chin it is a possibility

Blue = C cchl
Self blue chin = cchd cchl

 

[Disney]

Yes with c-recessive i meant one of the 4 genes on the loci.

Okay thankyou, so smoke pearl is a possibility but the kit doesnt have the shadings.. isnt that a necessity for the shaded gene or does it have to do with modifier genes? I was suspecting the blue rex herself to be chinchilla but i am certain that she is C_ because she doesnt have a anomality to her color and her black kit doesnt resemble a chinchilla either. I compared the black kit to other black kits from another litter and they are the same hue. I had a black chin before that looked washed out with a rusty sepia hue, but this black kit is entirely black so she and the blue rex must be "C", that only leaves the lighter blue kit.. i have been hearing mixed opinions on him so its very confusing.

 

[Dood]

They call them "self chin" for a good reason - you really cannot tell them apart from a self full colour sometimes their eye colour is lighter as kits but many of mine outgrow this

sometimes it's hard to see the shading but in my bloodline their saddle area usually lightens with maturity

 

[twr]

Some genetics texts (eg Robinson*) describe an additional c allele cchm in between cchd and cchl such that cchmc looks similar to seal (which would normally be cchlcchl). Might be worth considering if cchlc still seems unlikely when the kit is older.

I had also got the impression from forums that "self chin" was often being used to mean a kit with chinchilla ancestry that was visually a little "off" compared to a black chin. I have a personal theory (but no evidence) that those kits are cchm-based not cchd-based.

I'm not completely convinced we should be ruling out normal variation within blue due to modifiers (but maybe I just suck at spotting subtle shades).

*Robinson, R. (1958) — Genetic Studies of the Rabbit

P.S. Wasn't there a pic with a strong red cast to the eye earlier? Or did I imagine it?

 

[Disney]

@ twr
Yes the lighter kit does resemble a dark smoke pearl from what i gather, but i dont know about a cchm allele.

I just reposted the flash pics where you see the ruby cast.