Black NZ with mottled eyes question

[ThunderHill]

Hi! Our black NZ buck has gray/brown mottled eyes. I've read on here that the chinchilla gene can cause that, but can the c (albino) gene also cause it? He has a white great grandmother on his pedigree (all others are black or broken black) and just sired a single white kit a few days ago (the doe is his daughter, to whom he must have passed the c recessive, right?). Of course I won't know for sure if the kit is REW for several more days, but it looks fully white from what I can tell. Just wondering what might have caused those eyes! Could it be dilute if not chin? I'm new to rabbit color genetics, but have read countless threads here and other articles, so I'm starting to understand just a little! Thanks for any input!

 

[ThunderHill]

Here are a few full pictures of Batman. Could he be self chin and carry c as recessive? I guess that would be cchdc? And would he still just look black? Thanks again for any thoughts!

 

[ladysown]

chinchillas can look white at birth but yes it is possible.

 

[2CrazyFools]

Yes, he can definitely be self chinchilla carrying REW.

aaB_cchdcD_E_

You can check the eyes of the white kit at birth actually, red eyes will be hard to see while dark eyes (indicating an ermine/non-extension chinchilla) would look like little dark balls under the thin newborn kit skin.

The only gene (other than Vienna, and these don't look Vienna) that would give these eyes that blue marbling look would be the chin gene. It doesn't matter what he may carry in this instance (REW wouldn't do it either way) and neither would dilute since he is not dilute but is definitely dense. Blue based rabbits tend to have dull blue eyes, more of a brownish or purplish blue (rarely brown). Chin blues are more grey blue.

What other colors has he thrown? What colors were his parents?

 

[ThunderHill]

His whole pedigree is black or broken black with the exception of one great grandmother listed as "white."

When bred to the two does from our original trio (broken black littermates - both also only black/broken black pedigrees, except that same white great grandmother), We got all black or broken black with all brown eyes from one doe, and all black or broken black with either brown or blue/gray eyes from the other doe.

When bred to his own daughter this last time (black), we got 3 black and a REW (confirmed with open eyes today).

Strangely enough, we bred the doe who throws the blue/gray eyed kits to her son (from Batman), and got a broken black and 2 REWs! So I'm confused why that doe and the original buck never had REWs, because they would both have to carry it, right? Just luck of the draw in 13 kits over 3 litters?

The new REW from Batman and his black daughter:



The eye color we get from only one of the broken black does when bred to Batman:

 

[ladysown]

I wish I had answers.... but how eye colour works... haven't the foggiest idea.

and with REW sometimes it just luck of the draw.

 

[2CrazyFools]

So I'm confused why that doe and the original buck never had REWs, because they would both have to carry it, right? Just luck of the draw in 13 kits over 3 litters?

Yes, they both carry it as shown by the breeding. Just by chance they didn't produce it when bred together.

Recessives are like that sometimes, you can't really prove that rabbits don't carry _____ recessive gene if they don't produce it, just the likelihood of them having it reduces. "Recessives are forever" is something you may hear, lol.

Like I just bred my gold tipped steel with my red and she kindled this morning. Her first litter, just 5 little squeakers, all are full color C. It's not unlikely that she is CC, as both of her parents were full color rabbits and the sire to this litter was Cc so there is indeed space her recessive gene on the c-locus to present itself but if it is there it just didn't this time. So while I do have an inkling she's probably CC, I would be foolish to write that in her pedigree yet. If she constantly only produces full color rabbits for the next 5 or so litters then I'll assume it to be the case. But it's not PROVEN and there is still a chance suddenly she'll kindle a chin, or himi, or REW kit and I'll go "Ya gotta be kitten me."

That's how it worked with the chocolate gene for me. I would have bet my rabbitry that I didn't have chocolate in my herd and then one day the stars aligned and.... Chocolate chinchilla, lilac chinchilla, chocolate ermine and lilac self popped up in the same litter. "WHAT THE HECK!?" It was a happy surprise during a depressing few months.

----

Long story short, I do believe you have self chins. The brown eyed blacks could also be self chins but you wouldn't know unless you test bred them to say, an agouti based REW, and got a litter of REWs and Chins.

Pictured is an adult self chinchilla I had in the past, and you can do a search on FB for "NotAllBlueEyesAreVienna" and pull up a bunch of blue eyed chin based rabbits.

 

[ThunderHill]

Long story short, I do believe you have self chins. The brown eyed blacks could also be self chins but you wouldn't know unless you test bred them to say, an agouti based REW, and got a litter of REWs and Chins.

All of that makes sense! Thanks for the response! I only have black and broken black in my herd, so unless something else is hiding in there somewhere, I may never know for sure (unless I bring in new rabbits, of course, which I don't really plan to do for a while).

Congrats on your new litter!

 

[ThunderHill]

I guess my last question about this would be, should pure New Zealands have cchd in their genetics? Or does that mean they are mixes? The breeder we bought from certainly didn't mention it, and when we asked them about Batman's eye color later, they said it was probably dilute and we might get some blues. They were pedigreed NZ (which I know only means 3 generations, and before that could be whatever), and they had a lot of show winners, etc. so seemed legit for our starting stock.

 

[Ducklove74]

This looks like sectoral heterochromia..it is a genetic mutation and rare...you have some cool unique bunnies! It does not mean they are not pure NZ...and eye color is affected by C locus genes so the chinchilla gene could definitely play a part in this coloring.

 

[seashore]

Long story short, I do believe you have self chins. The brown eyed blacks could also be self chins but you wouldn't know unless you test bred them to say, an agouti based REW, and got a litter of REWs and Chins.

Pictured is an adult self chinchilla I had in the past, and you can do a search on FB for "NotAllBlueEyesAreVienna" and pull up a bunch of blue eyed chin based rabbits.

I'm relatively new to rabbit genetics and light is dawning in me in this thread. Are you saying that a rabbit that has cchd as its dominant colour but is a self will look like a black self?!
We have one black rabbit with eyes just like the picture above. The breeder told us she was carrying chinchilla so I assumed she was aaB_CcchdD_E_ but now wondering if that should be cchd_.