Baby pics! Help with colors please?

[MamaMandy]

This is my litter of 2 and a half week old Netherlands (held by my daughter/assistant ) and their daddy, AWOL. Momma is a himi named China. I've started seeing ticking on the black one, Ace, and I'm wondering if he might be a steel? The white one, John L. Sullivan, has some odd markings and sort of looks like a hotot, except his ears have some color too! It's hard to tell yet if the color is black or blue. His eyes are a blue gray. I guess he's considered a false charlie, and should for breeding purposes be treated as a broken? The blue baby, Adele, is so pretty. I'm not sure though if she's a blue otter or an opal? I've never seen either of those colors in person and from pics I've seen online I'm just not sure since she's still so young. AWOL was sold to me as a broken blue. I knew right away that wasn't correct. I thought maybe he was a blue tort, but now I'm thinking maybe he's an opal? He wouldn't be a blue steel would he? Thanks so much for any help you all can give me here. <br /><br />__________ Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:30 pm __________<br /><br />Oh and daddy has fawn at the nape of his neck. Thought that might be an important detail. Thanks!

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

I am not to good with the smaller rabbits. But the 6th pic is a vienna mark. Cant show it.

 

[MamaMandy]

Are you talking about the white one, Mary Ann?

 

[SMR]

See an opal baby, very first pic should be broken opal. Pictures is hard to see by, off lighting, but went back and read posts again. I thought at first was a chin, but the tan at the neck is a dead give away its not a chin lol. I don't see any thing that says vm, do see the charlie though. The black looking one isn't really black, it'll change most likely (see the tipping on its fur?), probably a dark siamese sable. They need to get a bit bigger and then retake pics for color in as natural light as possible. Still very little and color is hard to tell on ND when it comes to some.

Are you sure the mom isn't a broken himi?? That could be why you ended up with a charlie

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

Are you talking about the white one, Mary Ann?

No, the grey or blue one. It has a white mark on its nose . Yes it is a VM. It carries the blue eye white gene. It dosnt have to have blues eyes to carry the gene.
http://www.bewtifulbunnies.com/theviennagene.htm

 

[SMR]

Humm...must be my monitor, not clear enough to see it. I breed blue eyed whites. Its a possibility that the broken is a vm as well then too...

 

[MamaMandy]

SMR, I'm thinking he's a broken opal too. Do you think the baby would also be an opal or could it possibly be a blue otter? Good idea about the broken himi possiblity. Her pedigree has nothing but himis on it though. Is there anyway I could tell for sure if she's a broken himi?

Mary Ann, there isn't actually a white mark on her nose. The one picture is a little deceiving. The one of her underside you can see the fawn markings around her nose. That's what makes me wonder if she's an otter. Her fur doesn't have rings yet like an opal would but I've heard it takes awhie for rings to show up.

Thanks to both of you!

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

Mary Ann, there isn't actually a white mark on her nose. The one picture is a little deceiving. The one of her underside you can see the fawn markings around her nose. That's what makes me wonder if she's an otter. Her fur doesn't have rings yet like an opal would but I've heard it takes awhie for rings to show up.

ahhh, ok. from here looks like she has a white spot on her nose. If it is a tan under her nostril. and a tan spot behide her ears, It is a otter for sure.

 

[MamaMandy]

She does have fawn or tan under her nose but not at the nape of her neck. I've seen pics of opal kits that look like her too. That's why I'm confused...I guess it's possible that the broken opal buck could be carrying the tan gene.

Would a broken himi have colored feet? Because mine is marked like a normal himi. Just trying to figure this all out! LOL

 

[Disney]

I also think the bigger one is broken opal and the kit doesn't look opal to me.
I like the white hotot one, i used to have a lot of those.

Here is my vienna marked opal doe

 

[skysthelimit]

opals have tan under the nose, tan behind the ears and sometimes it does take a while for rings to come in, sometimes they never do. I have a 15 week old opal with no rings yet. I would need to see the ears, if it was an otter I would expect the underbelly to be more cream.

For the first one, change the background of the pict. I don't see any agouti markings on that kit. There should a white ring around the eyes, ears and nose. http://www.riddlesbunnybarn.com/colorchart.htm

 

[MamaMandy]

She's very pretty Disney!

Sky...so, opals have a white belly? Are you saying the broken doesn't look like an opal? The top two pics are of the daddy of the litter. To me it looks like he has rings when I blow into his fur. What exactly would you be looking for on the bluish kits ears?

Thanks!

 

[skysthelimit]

Opals are agouti marked like castors. They look blue, with white bellies, white eye circles, white nose lines and pink inside the ears, and a spot behind the neck, usually pink in a solid opal, As they mature, the pink spot becomes tan/red, and the nose is lined with a tan/red under the white, and the ears are trimmed with the same tan, the eyes have a white ring around them.

Sorry for the one with the kit held right side up, I don't see agouti markings on his ears or eye.

i am looking for an ear and eye that look more like this,

as opposed to this

opal on left, blue on right.

But with tan anywhere on that kit, it is clearly either tan or otter. It's possible that it is just an incorrectly marked opal, won't know till rings come in. The opal in this pict has no rings, he is 16 weeks. He is out of a castor x black breeding, with blue litter mates, so he is not an otter (castor could not carry otter because she carries self, black could not carry otter because he is a self).
Otters have tan markings that are very much like agouti markings, and at birth, I had a hard time distinguishing my otter from my castor until the actual fur began to grow. My otter did not have tan behind the ears until 2-3 weeks, it was a bald pink patch for some time, the last patch of fur to com in.

I can't seem to find you a good pict of rings that aren't rex.

 

[MamaMandy]

Thanks so much sky! I think the baby I have is definitely blue otter then. I don't see any eye rings on him at all. My broken opal must be carrying the tan gene then?

As far as the black kit with the gold ticking...I'm guessing either my himi or broken opal have to be hiding a steel gene?

 

[skysthelimit]

Thanks so much sky! I think the baby I have is definitely blue otter then. I don't see any eye rings on him at all. My broken opal must be carrying the tan gene then?

As far as the black kit with the gold ticking...I'm guessing either my himi or broken opal have to be hiding a steel gene?

What is the babies underbelly color?

Can't say anything about the himi or steel genes, I don't have that in my herd.

 

[MamaMandy]

The underbelly color is a cream color. I'm really confused now...I just realized that with the parents I have it isn't possible to get a black and a blue otter, only one or the other!<br /><br />__________ Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:35 pm __________<br /><br />And the third baby is a charlie marked broken blue...another self color, so I guess the blue baby has to be an opal not a blue otter? The blue one has a cream belly, fawn lacing around the ears and nose and trimming the cream on his belly. Also has a little fawn behind his ears, but no eye circles at all. Could they come later?

 

[skysthelimit]

The underbelly color is a cream color. I'm really confused now...I just realized that with the parents I have it isn't possible to get a black and a blue otter, only one or the other!

__________ Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:35 pm __________

And the third baby is a charlie marked broken blue...another self color, so I guess the blue baby has to be an opal not a blue otter? The blue one has a cream belly, fawn lacing around the ears and nose and trimming the cream on his belly. Also has a little fawn behind his ears, but no eye circles at all. Could they come later?

Blow into the cream fur, the skin should look blue, because the base shaft color of the hair is blue.

It could be just mismarked, like my opal with no rings. Eye circles are usually obvious from birth.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

That buck could be a steel, the steel gene does do away with the eye circles and other funky things.. if the mother is a black himi then yes it is possible to get both dilutes and full colours from that pair! It just means the mother carries dilute! Unless there is otter in the back ground somewhere the most likely patterns are agouti and steel agoutis.

 

[MamaMandy]

I'll do that Sky! Thanks for the tip!

Devon's Mom...I've been trying to figure out if momma is a black or chocolate himi. To me she looks chocolate but her pedigree says she's black. Is there a defining way to tell the difference? I mean, does a black himi truly have black points or are they brownish? Thanks!<br /><br />__________ Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:30 am __________<br /><br />Ok, Sky...his fur is very blue underneath the cream. How cool! I never noticed that! So that means he's a mismarked opal? Is he still ok to breed or would that pass on undesirable trait.

Devon's Mom...if the baby is a steel what can I breed him to? My plan was to breed him back to the himi mom. I really don't know much about the steel gene, so I don't know if that's a no no.

 

[skysthelimit]

That buck could be a steel, the steel gene does do away with the eye circles and other funky things.. if the mother is a black himi then yes it is possible to get both dilutes and full colours from that pair! It just means the mother carries dilute! Unless there is otter in the back ground somewhere the most likely patterns are agouti and steel agoutis.

I've never seen a steel agouti before, so if he is opal, he could be a steel opal, and that's why his fur looks tipped, and not like my opal?