Are these Harlequin? ....if so, how did I get them??

[rawfeeder]

Can anyone tell me if these babies (1 day old) are harlequin? They are out of a solid black buck and a black tort VM doe. 3 out of the 4 babies looked like this. Does anyone have pictures of newborn harlequins to compare to?

If they are not harlequin.. what do they look like to you? It was my understanding that Torts cannot carry harlequin... and the babies needed two copies as it was recessive. Very confused!

 

[Dood]

Yes, they are harlequin, no other colour has that effect.

Torts cannot carry harlequin because harlequin is dominant to the two non-extensition genes that torts carry on the E-locus

There are 4 colour genes on the E-locus, that we know of, and the order of dominance is as follows:
Es- full extension Steele
E. - full extension
ej. - Japanese / harlequin
e. - non-extension ( torts, sable points, and fawns all carry two of these)

So your black rabbit must carry a full extension 'E' and a harlequin 'ej'

These kits got the 'ej' from dad and an 'e' from mom and look harlequin, you could say they carry the tort gene

You can get torted harlequins 'ej e' that look like torts but there are faint ribbons of darker colour in the coat and it can be very difficult to tell that they are actually harlequin. Posting a good picture of your tort from several angles can help us tell if she is the source, otherwise it must be the black.

 

[rawfeeder]

Thank you Dood. You are brilliant I am trying to ingest all of that.

In the meantime, here are some pictures of the Tort doe in question:

Those are the best I can do for angles because she was dispatched this evening. Hope it helps.

I also did a second breeding of her full sister (who is a false charlie black tort doe) to the same buck (they are all pictured above). Some of the babies have uneven color on their black splodges... is there a chance of these being Magpie brokens? I can't seem to photograph the pattern.

 

[Dood]

I would say she is a tort and not a torted harli so it must be the black male who carries the harliquin.

The broken tort doe is self, and non extension and the buck is self, full extension and carries harli, so they can have blacks, torts and torted harli's with or without the broken pattern. You are likely seeing the tort harli, AKA torted tri-colour, in these broken patterned kits.

Magpie requires a harliquin and shaded gene to wash out the yellow pigments and make the rabbit have brindling that is black and white instead of black and orange/fawn.

 

[rawfeeder]

Again, THANK YOU!! I am actually understanding all of this!!

So only one parent has to contribute the harli gene for it to display? or is that just when bred to a non extension rabbit? Since if Maggie is a true Tort, she is not contributing the gene. Please correct me if I am wrong!

As for shaded gene to create a magpie.. is a tort a shaded color? how about himi? Both does carry himi, not sure on the buck. (Would he HAVE to carry it also for it to have effect on these kits?)<br /><br />__________ Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:09 am __________<br /><br />Just went and checked on the babies. Found 3 dead... including all my harlequin (they were small and weak anyway as you can see from the pics) I am so crushed. The third was a healthy kit with a full tummy... outside the nest box so much of clung onto mom whilst feeding and got pulled out

I have three babies left from my charlie doe. I have removed them and will supervise feedings. They are healthy and well fed. Fingers crossed they make it and I can salvage the harli gene back into my lines

 

[Dood]

Harli will only show in the coat if the rabbit has two harli genes or a harli and a non extension, so steele and full extension (like your black) can hide it.

The shaded genes are on the C-locus and there are 5 colour genes here in the following order of dominance
C - full colour
cch(d) - chinchilla (AKA dark shaded- chinchilla, silver marten, seal and true magpies)
cch(l) - shaded ( sable marten, Siamese sable, sable points and yellow tinged magpies)
ch - himalayan and always have red eyes ( Californian)
c - red eyed white AKA REW

There are several ways to get a shaded rabbit since it is the second most dominant so kits that are cch cch, cch ch, or cch c will be shaded, which kind of shaded depends on the other colours they possess.

Since your does carry himi, they must be full colour and himi 'C ch' or else they would not be torts but another colour.

If your buck carried a hidden shaded then he could produce shaded kits with your does if they got the 'ch from mom and the 'cchl' from dad.

Here is a website I use alot to help remember all the different genes

http://www.nockrabbits.com/coat_colors1.html

 

[rawfeeder]

Thanks for the link... it will keep me pre-occupied whilst I study further