any pitfalls in breeding shaded Rex?

[JessiL]

Hi, everyone!

I've been busy being a new mom, haven't had nearly as much time for good ol' Rabbit Talk like I used to. But I still have plenty of rabbits, my Americans continue to be the workhorses of the barn, and I'm trying to find good homes for my last two Champagnes.

But since having one breed only is lame, I recently jumped on the opportunity to pick up what seems to be a nice seal Rex doe. One of the most beautiful rabbit colors in my eyes is (Siamese) sable, and so I plan on using this lady as the start of my shaded Rex herd. To get sables from her, I'll want a buck that is sable, Californian (Himi in Rex speak), or (ruby-eyed) white, I know. But are there any little details about which cross would be best for optimal color tone and shade for the resulting sables?

And this doe had a chinchilla sire (from chin, black, white, and seal background), any chance she's not actually cchlcchl but is actually cchdcchl? She looks like the typical seal standard color to me. She's not been bred yet, so no results there to report to help figure that out. Her dam was seal.

Thanks for any advice! Rex are a new adventure for me, I'm looking forward to playing with colors other than blue and white (and the darn steel that is lurking in what seems to be just about every American).

 

[SableSteel]

Quite a few seal rex are actually cchdc (the interaction between cchd and c can make a rabbit that looks cchlcchl), and having a chin, black, white and seal background just adds to the probability that she is cchdc (self + cchdcchd, while technically self chinchilla often shows up as black - which is why you might see some "blacks" out of seals). Its possible she doesn't have the shaded gene at all. You could still try to get a sable buck to breed her to (if she has white in her line and shows up as a pheotypic seal, then she probably carries white), and that would get you some sables. Or maybe you got lucky and did get a cchlcchl doe - I'd still recommend finding a sable buck for her, because then you have a chance at sables either way. Good luck with her, and with shaded rexes

 

[Dood]

Could you post a picture Shaded rabbits are some of my favourites

Seals are sables with two shaded genes while Siamese sables have one shaded and then a himi or REW so the colour of buck you chose depends on what other colour kits you want

Seal X seal = 100% seal

Sable X seal = 50% seal 50% sable

Himi or REW X seal = 100% sable (make sure these are self/black based and not agouti or you'll get sable agouti or chinchilla if your doe is cchd :x )

If you get any himi or REW from the last two crosses then your doe is a sable and since she is so dark she is more likely a chin based sable

 

[JessiL]

I'll try to get a pic of her today. Here are the colors in her pedigree:
GGSire - Black Seal(?)
GSire - Seal GGDam - White
Sire - Chin
GDam - Chin GGSire - Chin
GG Dam - Black

GGSire - Black
GSire - Seal GGDam - White
Dam - Seal
GDam - Seal GGSire - Black
GGDam - Black

Yeah, there's some weird stuff there with the "Black Seal" crossed to a White resulting in "Seal." And the Black and White ending in a Seal.

 

[SableSteel]

Often the blacks seen on "seal" pedigrees are self-chins - cchdcchd - so crossed with white would make cchdc "seals". If you were dealing with true seals, a white could never throw a seal.

 

[JessiL]

I'm really suspecting I have a cchdc on my hands. She is in Global Pedigree so I could go deeper than the printed pedigree, and found lots of "black" to whites resulting in seals just upstream. I'm so glad that I talked to you lot here - now I know to concentrate on getting a nice true sable buck to cross with her.

So what would cchdcchl tend to look like in Rex - a black? Clearly any sables, himis, or REWs from crossing a sable with her would be clean of the cchd gene (assuming she's cchdc), just would want to make sure that I'd know how to get rid of cchd in my herd. I assume not keeping any "seals" or "blacks" from that cross would do it.

Buck cchl c or ch
Dam
cchd cchd cchl (?) cchd c ("seal"?) or cchd ch (?)
c cchl c (sable) ch c (himi) or c c (REW)

 

[Dood]

I've no idea what a self chin/sable chin ( cchd _ ) look like but my self chins look like self blacks, they often have blue-ish eyes as kits but many turn brown with age. I can see no difference between those that are cchd cchd and those that are cchd c

Well, if you breed to a REW you'll know exactly what your dealing with and that all kits will carry this gene so you could keep the true sables and build from there

Keep in mind that the Rex judges might prefer chin based sables - I know in the Satin breed that the "Siamese" variety must be cchd instead of cchl

 

[SableSteel]

cchdcchl may either look like blacks, or have some of the self chin- characteristics - namely blue-gray eyes like Dood already said. The only breed that its easy to see a difference between cchdcchd and cchdc (in my opinion) are rex and mini rex, where cchdc seems lighter - for some reason it stands out with their coats (maybe because we see more of the undercoat, which can be the first thing to fade) - cchd is incomplete dominant too, just definitely not as obvious of cchl.

 

[JessiL]

Ok, I got some pictures today of "Mudslide" (her given name, not mine) in full sun. She's in heavy molt like everything else. Clearly has lovely brown eyes. Any thoughts?

 

[Dood]

I have no experience with Rex but to me she looks "brassy" and to me that is an indicator of seal

She could also just be sun bleached :x

Hopefully someone with Rex can give a better guess :mrgreen:

 

[JessiL]

Thanks, Dood.

I also thought her color looks pretty "warm," and therefore a dark sepia, not black. But I know firsthand from my American blues just how rusty the old sun-faded fur can get. They are certainly NOT dark lilacs or cchl carriers.

I read somewhere, and of course can't find it anywhere right now, that a good way to tell blacks from seals is the color of the bottom of the feet - gray in blacks, brown-tinged in seals. I have no idea if this is true, and whether it would also work to distinguish those cchdc rabbits from cchlcchl. Of course I forgot to check Mudslide's feet yesterday.