Another color question

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This wasn’t a kit that I bred. I rescued her dam who was quite pregnant when I got her and her two kits. I weaned them just in time for 3 new kits to arrive. I believe that the sire is a blue fawn harlequin and this is the dam. Is she also a gold tipped steel? She’s super friendly but never stops moving when I am checking on her and her kits so it’s hard to get a decent photo. These were taken in natural light. 898F1A06-0B01-4F49-90E3-EAA6C493172F.jpeg 7B4E72EE-2816-40D3-BBAB-D7AF14AEA6C5.jpeg
 

ladysown

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Chestnuts come in different shades... the first kit is definitely a chesnut... steels tend to have their colour come in a bit later. The second one might be a lighter chestnut but something has me wondering if it's something different.
 
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Chestnuts come in different shades... the first kit is definitely a chesnut... steels tend to have their colour come in a bit later. The second one might be a lighter chestnut but something has me wondering if it's something different.
Fascinating!! I’ll get my Ott light out and get some better photos. It’s hard to hold the little popcorn babies and take pictures simultaneously but I must know. Really could have sworn that first kit was self black at first... mama is a strange color too.
 

ladysown

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mom looks to me, like the kits I used to get off Frosty (an ermine) when bred to a fawn buck carrying chestnut and chocolate. She would throw these blackish-coloured kits with silvery or white ticking.
 

RabbitsOfTheCreek

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I also had a VM Black kit with marbled eyes lol
I can’t wait to see their eyes! Both of her weaned kits have weird eyes too.

Okay! The dark kit cooperated enough for a side shot. It looks like banding! Is it possible that the kit is a harlequin?

Also, here’s the sire. 5D8D81C6-5003-4066-85C6-8B636A83AAC6.png 5DB24624-283D-4184-B5F8-4402BA07F599.jpeg
 

judymac

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I thought this one was chestnut.. they are quite different. I can get photos of them side by side tomorrow morning when I have good light in there. CE04D6E5-E039-41B7-9E27-6196484EE06A.png
This kit has white in the inner ears, usually a sign of agouti markings. The color looks somewhat chocolate, chocolate agouti perhaps?
They look like fawn agouti, black agouti (called chestnut), and chocolate agouti. Since the sire is a harlequin, and agouti is dominant over agouti, the kits look agouti, BUT harlequin as a recessive can really mess with the colors, such as the apparent striping. I've seen some really strange colors come out of harlequin recessives.

Also, Vienna is not the only cause of blue eyes. Chinchilla, even as a recessive under regular full-color 'C', can cause pale blue, blue-gray, or marbled eyes.
 
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This kit has white in the inner ears, usually a sign of agouti markings. The color looks somewhat chocolate, chocolate agouti perhaps?

They look like fawn agouti, black agouti (called chestnut), and chocolate agouti. Since the sire is a harlequin, and agouti is dominant over agouti, the kits look agouti, BUT harlequin as a recessive can really mess with the colors, such as the apparent striping. I've seen some really strange colors come out of harlequin recessives.

Also, Vienna is not the only cause of blue eyes. Chinchilla, even as a recessive under regular full-color 'C', can cause pale blue, blue-gray, or marbled eyes.
Thank you for explaining that! Is there a book that you could recommend on genetics?
 

judymac

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Good question. I haven't found anything detailed currently in print. I've spent the last two years working on an illustrated version, it's almost done now, just working on the final charts for the appendix. Robinson's book on rabbit genetics is available at Rabbitcolors - Literature I have found this resource fascinating, as sometimes his experience is at variance with the experts of the day. I find that still to be true. So many hard-and-fast genetic rules, yet so many things that say there is more at work than just the simple ABCs of genetics. I'm no expert, but I've read all I could find. Glenna Huffman's spiral bound genetics book, "Rabbit Coat Color Genetics" has been praised, but it was self-published and is out of print. I've gotten a few excerpts from it, but couldn't find a real copy to read.

Rabbit Genetics | The Nature Trail has some excellent rabbit genetics pages. Green Barn Farm also has some very helpful genetics pages-- Holland Lop Colors: Agouti will get you to their site. Mouse over the genetics tab at the top of the page for some helpful color charts.
 
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Thank you for explaining that! Is there a book that you could recommend on genetics?
I think Ellyn Eddy's "ABC - About Bunny Colors" is a fantastic resource for both beginners and those that have spent a lot of time working with rabbit coat color genetics. Last I checked you can get it on Amazon, rabbitsmarties.com or allthingsbunnies.com. It starts with basic Mendelian genetic inheritance and an intro to Punnet Square analysis, then covers the genetic codes for most rabbit coat colors. It doesn't get too much into trickier areas like effects of modifiers, but it really does a nice job of helping you figure out the basic functions and interactions of the most common color genes. It is a simple comb-bound booklet that has lots of color photos (though they're not the highest quality/resolution because of the printing), and leans more toward being a working rabbit breeder's guide than a theoretical one. But even if you want to learn more about genetics than just what applies to rabbit coat colors, Eddy's book gives you the basic principles and then uses coat color as a great example of how to apply those basic principles. I'd highly recommend it before trying Glenna Huffman's book, which I have but is definitely more theoretical and also directed squarely at rabbit coat colors (and which I use far less than "ABC" even though I've been working in genetics since, um, well let's say the last century, haha).
I agree with judymac that Holland Lop Colors is a great site for info coat colors in normal fur. Rabbit Genetics | The Nature Trail site offers a good basic intro but doesn't have many reference photos. Personally, I really like Mini Rex Color Guide, which I probably use the most; it has both genetic codes and phenomenal color photos, especially useful in combination with GBFarm's page, since colors can look so different in normal vs rex coats. It's also a good resource in combination with "ABC" since the photos are better.
 

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