Acceptable losses

[skysthelimit]

I lost a Holland kit this morning. Found it in the water dish, it was on wet on the feet, no water in there. It didn't drowned, they like to sleep in the empty dishes. It was fine last night. I'd be upset about losing any kit, but the hollands are precious. I am very disappointed, it took three times to get a little just to lose one now. The litter will be 4 weeks old on the 16th. I can't remember having done anything differently than before. And perhaps that's the problem.


Since Jan., I have had 8 litters. That is a total of 50 kits, and I've lost three so far, between the ages of 3 weeks and 6 weeks.

I am trying to work out an acceptable amount of losses. Zero would be better, but perhaps not realistic. And I have to rethink everything I do. Is it the pellets? I can't change that. Was it the fly spray, cleaning with pinesol, the vinegar in the water? Is the hay old, was the bowl too clean or too dirty. This was an otherwise healthy kit with no signs of illness, not snot, no poopy butt.

What am I supposed to do with this? Accept that rabbit are frail creatures, and losses happen, or change what I am doing.

 

[-HRanchito]

:hmm: I think you shouldn't beat yourself up about it. Hopefully somebody else has some ideas about what happened, but they are definitely frail creatures.

 

[OnTheBrightside]

I know how you feel, and you shouldn't blame yourself or what your doing if your otherwise successful. I just lost almost an entire litter of 7, only one left now and I fostered him to a different doe. They were all healthy or seemed to be and the other litters in the barn are thriving. Sometimes it just isn't preventable, I guess.

 

[ladysown]

how do you clean with pinesol?

But 3 kits lost out of 50 babies, that's good. yes, zero would be better, but three kits is overall not bad.

 

[skysthelimit]

how do you clean with pinesol?

But 3 kits lost out of 50 babies, that's good. yes, zero would be better, but three kits is overall not bad.

I tried rinsing the poop trays in pinesol, because I read somewhere that flies don't like it. Poop trays are those cement mixing tubs from Home Depot, at least 2 inches below the cage wire, so no contact. It never smells pine like in there, but you never know. I thought it might be better than the lime I put in the trays.

It always seems like my favorite dies--personality, color, the does seem to die the most.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I don't know if three is a lot or not- that would work out to a 6% mortality rate.

I recently lost my first older kit (eyes open, out of the nest, maybe 4 weeks old?), out of who knows how many kits I have bred since last year. If they survive the first few days, I have come to expect them to live. I did have 2 die last year after being attacked by the maniacal mousies, and that one in the growout pen that screamed and just up and died...

I think the Hollands are more delicate than Rex. If you don't factor the Holland in, your mortality rate falls to 4%.

I don't think it is your fault in any way. But I would make note of the sire and dam of the kits that died and see if there is any correlation.

 

[toastedoat37]

I raised hundreds of newzealands and californians over a six year period and only ever lost one after the first week, cept for one that was killed by a cat when i had them out of the cage and one rabbit that was crazy and attacked , i ended up shooting when it got loose.

But i think that there is more illness in the rabbit world now days and some o the breeds are more suceptable than others. I never had a sick rabbit. And the guy I got help from getting started , never had a sick rabbit. I think a lot of the illness today has to do with genetics. And at the time that i was raising rabbits, i think the people i knew of that had some sick rabbits,i was convinced that their problems had a lot to do with feed.

__________ Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:38 pm __________

Proper clean environment is important too, but i also think that too clean is not good,some bacteria is good and all babys need to have some exposer to it.<br /><br />__________ Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:38 pm __________<br /><br />Proper clean environment is important too, but i also think that too clean is not good,some bacteria is good and all babys need to have some exposer to it.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

Try losing 84 newborn kits in one week---- then, the ones that were older, died off one by one at 8-12 weeks of age... a few months later- lost all the adults within a half hour--You are doing okay---

 

[grumpy]

The world isn't perfect. Death, as well as Life, is inevitable. 3 out of 50 isn't bad. Quite possibly, the little fella got chilled setting in the water dish. It doesn't take much to send a little one over the edge.

Do all that you can do. Try to "see" what may occur. I know that's hard to do. But, with time it will become easier. I've changed a couple of things in and around the cages that made a difference on the mortality problems one experiences over the course of a year.

Just like those two nails in the bottom of the nest box. There was a "reason" I did what I did to stop that. Youngsters would get out of the box and mess around. The doe, knowing no better, would slide the box against them and pin them against the side of the cage. Result: One expired youngster. I lost more than just one before that light-bulb came on in my head.

You raise enough livestock, you will experience losses, regardless of your every effort not to do so. To think you won't is sheer folly.

Grumpy.

 

[MaggieJ]

I think a lot of the illness today has to do with genetics. And at the time that i was raising rabbits, i think the people i knew of that had some sick rabbits,i was convinced that their problems had a lot to do with feed.

Proper clean environment is important too, but i also think that too clean is not good,some bacteria is good and all babys need to have some exposer to it.

I tend to agree with this. You can extinguish a lot of weaknesses by selecting only the healthiest, hardiest, most trouble-free youngsters to retain as breeding stock.

Cull hard. If a rabbit develops a problem, think twice or three times before retaining it. Don't play favourites. If you have a rabbit with a weakness and want to keep it as a pet, that is fine... but don't allow its genetics into your main herd.

I do think a rabbitry can be too clean. Rabbits that can manage to thrive in an environment that is only reasonably clean will tend to be more resistant to the common illnesses that afflict so many.

Diet does play a role. In spite of using a deep litter system in my colony, I have never seen cocccidiosis or other common illnesses in the colony. I attribute this to the large amount and variety of greens (weeds and tree leaves) that we feed. Willow, poplar, lamb's quarters, chicory, pumpkin seeds and many other plants have properties that protect against common problems such as internal parasites including coccidiosis.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=w ... 4Q&cad=rja

All that said, I do not think losing three kits out of fifty is an unacceptable amount, especially with pellet-fed rabbits.

 

[Miss M]

I agree with Toastedoat and Maggie... there is lots of evidence that super-clean environments are actually detrimental, even to people! The immune system doesn't have anything to work against, so either the immune system becomes weak, or it turns on you. Not that all autoimmune disorders like lupus and asthma are all caused by clean houses.

I remember hearing of a man who had one of those flesh-eating bacteria, and his doctor had tried everything to beat the disease back, to no avail. He had reached the end of what he could do, yet the man was still having his flesh eaten away. He informed the man that he couldn't do anything else, so the only thing left was to go home and roll in the dirt. The man was shocked. The doctor explained that the only thing left that might have a chance was the man's own immune system, but it needed to be awakened, because it wasn't fighting the disease. If he rolled in the dirt, he would introduce all kinds of bacteria and other things into his skin. Hopefully, it would provoke his immune system to do something.

The man figured he had nothing to lose, so he went home, took off his shirt, and rolled in the dirt in his yard. It worked. His immune system came roaring to life to fight all the new intruders, and it overwhelmed the flesh-eating disease while it was at it. He was cured.

A good immune system cannot be developed well without some germs around, so, like Maggie said, "reasonably clean" is plenty good enough. You want rabbits that are hardy, and that's one way to make sure they are.

Like they both said, you do need to cull those that are not healthy, for the sake of the rabbits themselves, and for the sake of the future health of your line. Much of the lack of hardiness in rabbits comes from breeders who are not willing to cull, and from oversympathetic people who can't stand the thought of either putting a rabbit down, or at least neutering it so it can never pass on its issues.

I think you are doing quite well! From what I've read, Hollands are pretty difficult to get the kind of survival rate from that you've been getting! You must be doing something right.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Illness of any kind these days is seen as bad and there are those that wish to eradicate it completely by any means possible. Yet, both children and adults often experience huge advances in both cognitive and physical growth after a challenge to their immune systems.

My kids have always run around barefoot, (it's dry here so there is little risk of parasites in the soil), played in the dirt and mud (naked as young-uns!), eaten kibble out of the dog bowl as infants, and eaten vegis straight from the plant. Bad mother that I am, they are not made to wash their hands after touching animals or coming inside from the great outdoors. Anti-bacterial soap is a bad word in our house. They are rarely ill, and I can count on one hand the number of times they have taken antibiotics. I don't think Colliepup has ever had them, as a matter of fact.

My rabbitry is clean, but aside from the time I steam cleaned all of my cages due to a suspected pastuerella abscess, I don't "sanitize" it. Vinegar and a nylon bristle brush takes care of most things, at least in my experience so far.

I didn't say so before, but I am sorry you lost your little Holland. Was she the one you photographed in the palm of your hand? If so, you have a very nice memorial of her.

 

[ollitos]

Acceptable losses... well.. I think that really depends on your experience, your rate of breeding, the quantity of kits you're producing regularly and your end goals.

If you want to breed for a few pets every now and then, it's not going to break you to lose a couple kits out of a litter. But if you're breeding for commercial meat production, losing 1 or 2 kits out of every litter is way too high.

I'm on my third litter now. Based on the size and health of this litter, I expect to lose one or both of the runts. My instincts tell me that they probably won't make it so I am not figuring them into the long term scenario. The last litter had zero losses. The first litter.. ugh.. out of 9 birthed, only 4 have survived. That's not acceptable losses, however I know what caused each loss and have adjusted accordingly.

Personally, I think losing 3 out of 50 is an acceptable number. I am a long ways from that ratio.

 

[ladysown]

I've learned in my herd... I lose rabbits in the spring. So I"ve started to select for hardy spring rabbits. it will take time, but with the tent ventilation problems that I have that's what I have to cope with. The seasonal spring change...my herd just doesn't like it.

 

[skysthelimit]

I didn't say so before, but I am sorry you lost your little Holland. Was she the one you photographed in the palm of your hand? If so, you have a very nice memorial of her.

Yes. I've been counting them every time I go in, trying to figure out how there can only be four.<br /><br />__________ Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:57 pm __________<br /><br />

I've learned in my herd... I lose rabbits in the spring. So I"ve started to select for hardy spring rabbits. it will take time, but with the tent ventilation problems that I have that's what I have to cope with. The seasonal spring change...my herd just doesn't like it.

That seems to be the case, and someone sent me a FB message asking if anyone else has had a problem this spring.

I am worry about too many cleaning solutions, but I haven't been able to get rid of those flies, had them for the past three years, and flies invading the rabbitry is the last straw. Maybe I'll by a bug zapper and let some microbes live.



Thanks everyone, you let me off the hook without letting me off. I need to know there is something I can do, but I also that it may not have been something that I did. I hate to think it was because my lack of knowledge. I also needed to know that this is something that happens, it just happens, but that it is not so completely out of my control that I feel like it's futile to take preventative measures or to intervene is possible.

It's better to feel that natural selection did it's job and weeded these ones out, than to think I mismanaged them.

 

[AnnClaire]

Sky, other than the DOAs in the nest boxes, my losses have been after 4 weeks of age and due to injury ... there are just some things that will cause a broken neck or back in a rabbit that there really isn't anything to do to prevent it. We actually watched one baby run and jump into the side of the cardboard corral ... the one side that was up against solid wood. The next morning, he was lethargic and barely moving his back legs and already cooling, but still alive. That one was the hardest one as the family insisted that I try to save it. The next time, I put the baby down immediately ... no more letting it linger to prove to them that it was a hopeless situation.

I also lost one that was out on grass when the wind was chilly and I forgot to put the oats and pellets in the pen. They had been out on grass for 2 weeks already, but also had access to the feed. I woke up to a poopy, lethargic, cooling kit.

I would say, 3 out of 50 is not a bad percentage when you consider all the ways the babies can get injured. I am so sorry that you lost this one and I hope you don't lose any more!

 

[Honorine]

Well 3 out of 50 is pretty darn good, I myself always expect to lose 1-3 kits out of large litters, and 1-2 out of small litters. It also depends on the breeds as well, every breed has its own charateristics. Some lines of Mini Rex drop dead for no good reason, and tend not to be long lived, however are generally hardy, prolific, good mothers, but you lose kits because they are peanuts, or they have enteritis at three weeks, or sometimes are just mysteriously dead. Silvers are the canaries of the rabbit world, they must have good ventilation, or you will know it, their very sensitive to ammonia. Some are good mothers, others are not, thats where your losses come in. However I have never had a 'mystery death' with a Silver, in fact I've had several oldsters that developed congestive heart failure and still had to be put down, they just kept kicking. Standard Chinchillas are disgustedly healthy, but nervous jumpy mothers that drag feeding kits out of the next box on a regular basis, that often die from the cold if not found in time. Flemish are clumsy mothers that step on their kits, and I always expected to lose 2-3 that way, and I've seen that with my larger Palomino doe, she stepped on two of her's. Larger litters often mean more runts, and more losses, I prefer to only have 7 on a doe and often move kits around so that their is only 7-8 on a doe. Everything I've mentioned can apply to any breed, and it happens, a lot. Rabbits die, sometimes for no apparant reason, if your going to breed any animal your going to have losses. Losing kits doesn't faze me as much as it once did, just lost an entire Standard Chinchilla litter because the mother was a first timer and made a nice nest, put the babies in the nest, and then stomped on them all. Its something you have to get used to. I must admit losing puppies still upsets me.

 

[hoodat]

RE the cleaning solutions used in the trays it depends somewhat on the distance between the bottom cage wire and the tray. I try to keep the trays as far as I can from the bottom of the cage since quite a few problems can start there. In fact I don't use trays at all but poop chutes that feed into bins. There is little to no manure build up in them if you scrape them into the bins frequently. Usually the bins begin to compost on their own and that eliminates a lot of harmful bacteria building up in them. They also get dumped onto the garden quite often. My garden is always hungry for rabbit berries.

 

[skysthelimit]

Another holland kits died today. He was looking like a runt for the last few days, half the size of the others.

Kits that get enteritis and recover, do you keep those or cull those?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Oh no-o-o! So sorry, Sky!