Resolved

[Bug616]

My daughter started 4-H last year. We already had a mini rex doe, but she is Vienna marked and too large at 6lbs. I did my research and drove 3 hours to get a BEW buck that was already tattooed and had been shown. I spoke to several breeders about size, body type, color, and temperament.

Our fair is pretty small and there were only two mini rex entered. The other one was a buck easily as large as my doe at 6 lbs. It also had a standard rex appearance with a long narrow face and rectangular body. He was also caged with another buck, so I'm assuming he was neutered, but not positive.

I was pretty surprised when the judge (local, not arba) stated the other mini rex was BOB because it exhibited features desirable in a standard rex, which is all there was when she was growing up.

I spoke to her afterwards and explained that mini rex are supposed to have a compact appearance, full face, short ears, and under 4.25 lbs for bucks ( my daughter's is 4 lbs, there is a noticeable difference). They should have dwarf characteristics. Her reply was "we really should get a scale in here".

I'm not normally a complainer. I grew up showing animals and have no problem losing to better animals. However, I'm kinda peeved about an animal with multiple DQs winning BOB over my daughter's well bred buck because the judge isn't qualified.

My daughter took it like a champ, we have talked about sportsmanship and cheering on our friends, I haven't shared my annoyance with her. However, even she, at 7 years old, told me the other rabbit was too large to be a mini.

How far do I take this? Should I work on getting an arba judge next year? Make sure they bring in a scale? Or just let it go because it is a small kids show. I know of several other people that also want to up the standards to properly teach the kids about breeds instead of it being a glorified pet show (a pet class would be perfectly fine).

Am I being a total Karen? No offense to any real Karens... Thank you for input

 

[Naelin]

Her reply was "we really should get a scale in here".

I know nothing about shows, fairs or ARBA but it baffles me that any sort of competition where the weight has importance does not have a scale available and widely used.

If I were in your position I would raise concerns about all the inconsistencies (not having a scale, not following ARBA standards, giving the win to a rabbit for having features desirable on a different breed, accepting breeds that they are not qualified to judge, etc) avoiding having your daughter's rabbit as the focal point or even as a point of comparison.
Even if her rabbit wasn't present, it is my understanding that the other one should have been disqualified (leaving no winner in that case)

Join with the other people and tell them about this, it will be much more efficient to raise a group concern than having a singular person complaining "because her daughter didn't win" (Not saying that is the case, but it may be perceived as that)

 

[Alaska Satin]

My daughter started 4-H last year. We already had a mini rex doe, but she is Vienna marked and too large at 6lbs. I did my research and drove 3 hours to get a BEW buck that was already tattooed and had been shown. I spoke to several breeders about size, body type, color, and temperament.

Our fair is pretty small and there were only two mini rex entered. The other one was a buck easily as large as my doe at 6 lbs. It also had a standard rex appearance with a long narrow face and rectangular body. He was also caged with another buck, so I'm assuming he was neutered, but not positive.

I was pretty surprised when the judge (local, not arba) stated the other mini rex was BOB because it exhibited features desirable in a standard rex, which is all there was when she was growing up.

I spoke to her afterwards and explained that mini rex are supposed to have a compact appearance, full face, short ears, and under 4.25 lbs for bucks ( my daughter's is 4 lbs, there is a noticeable difference). They should have dwarf characteristics. Her reply was "we really should get a scale in here".

I'm not normally a complainer. I grew up showing animals and have no problem losing to better animals. However, I'm kinda peeved about an animal with multiple DQs winning BOB over my daughter's well bred buck because the judge isn't qualified.

My daughter took it like a champ, we have talked about sportsmanship and cheering on our friends, I haven't shared my annoyance with her. However, even she, at 7 years old, told me the other rabbit was too large to be a mini.

How far do I take this? Should I work on getting an arba judge next year? Make sure they bring in a scale? Or just let it go because it is a small kids show. I know of several other people that also want to up the standards to properly teach the kids about breeds instead of it being a glorified pet show (a pet class would be perfectly fine).

Am I being a total Karen? No offense to any real Karens... Thank you for input

Fairs frequently operate on very different rubrics and precedents than ARBA shows. Very often they are run and judged by volunteers (many ARBA judges expect a stipend, which many fairs don't have the budget for); those volunteers may or may not be up-to-speed on ARBA standards or show rules, and in my experience they put in long, sometimes thanksless hours of effort. In my experience, fairs are also hesitant to disqualify animals because owners (who also often do now know about or understand the ARBA SOP) provide the exhibits that make up a big part of the fair's bread-and-butter, and so the fair organizers justifiably do not want to alienate them.

Part of rabbit showing is the sportsmanship you mentioned teaching your daughter. It is considered poor form to correct a judge, especially in public, but there is nothing stopping you from having a discussion with her about a breed standard of perfection. A person only knows what they know, and don't necessarily know things may have changed. Mini Rex were only accepted in 1988, which is not that long ago for some of us! You might be in a position to open up a whole new world to her. I am very strongly supportive of education of fair organizers, breeders and students in regard to the standards governing the various breeds of livestock.

Perhaps you could offer to provide the fair with a scale and ARBA SOP. If you know and understand the SOP, you might offer to hold a clinic on reading the SOP, general DQs and judging techniques. That's what we did for our state fair several years ago, and the quality of both rabbits and judging has increased tremendously. In fact, for the last several years, we've run numerous rabbit and poultry clinics for 4-H students and leaders, to help get everyone up to speed on reading, interpreting and breeding to a standard. It's a foreign concept to many people, and quite different from the standards they may have encountered elsewhere, like those for dogs, horses, or other livestock.

IMO, I don't think an ARBA-licensed judge is necessarily critical; successful breeders, ARBA registrars, or those in training can often do a great job of judging, which is usually how our fair rabbit show is judged. As I said, many fairs have a "kinder-and-gentler" approach to judging and decline to disqualify an animal for anything other than the wrong sex or an obvious health issue, and that practice can put some ARBA judges in an uncomfortable spot.

Incidentally, the head and ears on a Mini Rex are only worth 5 points each, and as long as the ears aren't over 3.5 inches, there's no DQ, even in the ARBA SOP. A compact head, ears and body really says "Mini Rex,"and you are correct that the body should be compact, but lacking that is only a fault; the only type DQ in the M.R. SOP is for "extremely low shoulders, body which is extremely rangy or racy." That "extremely" means that it is up to the judge's discretion, which at an ARBA show, at least, is incontestable. Fur, color and condition are worth more than general type in the Mini Rex (55 vs 45 pts, respectively), so that could have factored into the decision. The weight issue is important in Mini Rex, but if the fair doesn't even have a scale, it sounds like the playing field is probably about level, with rabbits both under and over the min and max weights being included in all breeds(our fair does not outright DQ for weights, either, even in the meat pens).

It's hard to watch what you consider to be an inferior rabbit place over yours, but the fact is that no two judges will ever have quite same opinions; sometimes a judge will even reverse his or her own judgment on a different day. I've stood and watched my rabbit be DQd on one judging table, only to have it win Reserve in Show on another table. The human variation in judgement and SOP interpretation is a feature of rabbit shows that I actually appreciate, since it gives more people a chance to win.

 

[Bug616]

Fairs frequently operate on very different rubrics and precedents than ARBA shows. Very often they are run and judged by volunteers (many ARBA judges expect a stipend, which many fairs don't have the budget for); those volunteers may or may not be up-to-speed on ARBA standards or show rules, and in my experience they put in long, sometimes thanksless hours of effort. In my experience, fairs are also hesitant to disqualify animals because owners (who also often do now know about or understand the ARBA SOP) provide the exhibits that make up a big part of the fair's bread-and-butter, and so the fair organizers justifiably do not want to alienate them.

Part of rabbit showing is the sportsmanship you mentioned teaching your daughter. It is considered poor form to correct a judge, especially in public, but there is nothing stopping you from having a discussion with her about a breed standard of perfection. A person only knows what they know, and don't necessarily know things may have changed. Mini Rex were only accepted in 1988, which is not that long ago for some of us! You might be in a position to open up a whole new world to her. I am very strongly supportive of education of fair organizers, breeders and students in regard to the standards governing the various breeds of livestock.

Perhaps you could offer to provide the fair with a scale and ARBA SOP. If you know and understand the SOP, you might offer to hold a clinic on reading the SOP, general DQs and judging techniques. That's what we did for our state fair several years ago, and the quality of both rabbits and judging has increased tremendously. In fact, for the last several years, we've run numerous rabbit and poultry clinics for 4-H students and leaders, to help get everyone up to speed on reading, interpreting and breeding to a standard. It's a foreign concept to many people, and quite different from the standards they may have encountered elsewhere, like those for dogs, horses, or other livestock.

IMO, I don't think an ARBA-licensed judge is necessarily critical; successful breeders, ARBA registrars, or those in training can often do a great job of judging, which is usually how our fair rabbit show is judged. As I said, many fairs have a "kinder-and-gentler" approach to judging and decline to disqualify an animal for anything other than the wrong sex or an obvious health issue, and that practice can put some ARBA judges in an uncomfortable spot.

Incidentally, the head and ears on a Mini Rex are only worth 5 points each, and as long as the ears aren't over 3.5 inches, there's no DQ, even in the ARBA SOP. A compact head, ears and body really says "Mini Rex,"and you are correct that the body should be compact, but lacking that is only a fault; the only type DQ in the M.R. SOP is for "extremely low shoulders, body which is extremely rangy or racy." That "extremely" means that it is up to the judge's discretion, which at an ARBA show, at least, is incontestable. Fur, color and condition are worth more than general type in the Mini Rex (55 vs 45 pts, respectively), so that could have factored into the decision. The weight issue is important in Mini Rex, but if the fair doesn't even have a scale, it sounds like the playing field is probably about level, with rabbits both under and over the min and max weights being included in all breeds(our fair does not outright DQ for weights, either, even in the meat pens).

It's hard to watch what you consider to be an inferior rabbit place over yours, but the fact is that no two judges will ever have quite same opinions; sometimes a judge will even reverse his or her own judgment on a different day. I've stood and watched my rabbit be DQd on one judging table, only to have it win Reserve in Show on another table. The human variation in judgement and SOP interpretation is a feature of rabbit shows that I actually appreciate, since it gives more people a chance to win.

Thank you for the response. I spoke to someone in charge and only brought up the offer to provide a scale for future events. That person brought up my daughter's class and that the winning rabbit definitely wasn't mini, so they had noticed as well and figured out why I was there. We bounced around a few ideas and are planning on changing a few things to begin to up the standards to more than just a "pet show", although everyone will have a place to compete. Our rules state that they follow arba rules, but it definitely hasn't been enforced. I agree that for 4-H, they should be a bit more gentle and the DQs would be rampant if they looked closely, but I do believe those faults should at least factor into placing so people can learn.