2 weeks to train!

[JessicaR]

We had our last 4h meeting last night, before the fair in 2 weeks. They decided to tell my son that he may be in the wrong class for his dog project. He was told he was in the Novice obedience class at the begginning of 4h, now he may have to compete in the Graduate novice class. :evil: That would give us 2 weeks to train drop on recall, holding & walking with a dumbell, recall over a high and broad jump, and 3 minute down stay with handler OUT OF SIGHT! There is no way he will have that stuff trained by fair time. I think that since it was their mistake he should be allowed to compete in the class they origanally told him.

We may be able to get him to do some of the stuff like the jumps and possibly the drop on recall, but out of sight stay and dumbells... we dont even own a dumbell! I also refuse to do the force retrieve training method, which is what the advisor/trainer uses.

He would automatically get first place since he would be the only one in the Grad Novice class, but who wants to win by default! He would rather compete against other kids, and win/lose that way.

 

[ladysown]

i would query that decision and figure out why that decision was made and what the point of it is?

Why tell someone two weeks before a competition that "oh, you're in the wrong class, tough luck about that" it's 4H it's supposed to be about helping kids, not hindering them.

 

[skysthelimit]

i would query that decision and figure out why that decision was made and what the point of it is?

Why tell someone two weeks before a competition that "oh, you're in the wrong class, tough luck about that" it's 4H it's supposed to be about helping kids, not hindering them.

So true!!!!!

The dumbbell is not easy, not in two weeks, and the forced retrieve is not my favorite way either.

 

[LauraNJ]

I've put advanced obedience, herding degrees on dogs, along with conformation titles. Realistically, 2 weeks is not enough time to train your dog to be proficient for the next level up. Your son will get frustrated at trying to accomplish all those goals in such a short amount of time, not to mention the dog getting confused at all these things thrown at him last minute to learn.

Usually Novice, in regular obedience, is for handlers who have not yet put that degree on a dog they have owned/handled. The dog does not have all their legs for the degree so if your son hasn't achieved that degree/class on his dog yet, why would he have to advance? I would look up the rules myself and then question why the change.

I'd also make sure there isn't a DQ if the dog just refuses to do some of the exercises. For force fetching/retrieving I assume you are talking about the use of electronic collars. I have used them but you have to know what you are doing. It isn't something most people should buy and then experiment with, the dog must be conditioned correctly which takes a trainer who is experienced. Our Lab has an electronic collar, she is sensitive so the only reminder she ever needs is the pager vibrator, no electric stimulation or anything else. The collars can be a great tool when used correctly, the dog is turning the pressure on and off by either obeying or choosing not to.

It seems very unfair to your son and the dog to switch the class at the last minute.

 

[Secuono]

I'm not understanding the training for force retrieve. I found this online.
"I start all my dogs on a small bench. The dog's collar is secured to a post. this setup eliminates the dogs option to run or fight. I start with a wooden dowel. it is placed in the dogs mouth and held there until he quits fighting, then I take it back. When the dog will hold the dowle for a few seconds without a fight, I move to the next phase. I will pinch the ear flap on the dog and hold the dowel in front of him. If he yelps, bites or barks, the dowel is placed in his mouth and the pressure instantly released from the ear. The dog is praised. After the dog clearly understands that placing the item in his mouth stops the pressure, I will move to other forms of compulsion, (toe hitch, E collar , etc.) until he knows how to turn each form of compulsion off by placing the item in his mouth. Over the next several weeks the dog learns to pick up, hold, carry, and release a number of different items, including birds. "


I'm seeing this as too much involvement. I could teach my dogs to pick something up, bring it back and drop it without any weird 'pressure' to get him to pick it up. I would just use a verbal or visual signal that equals 'pick up' 'come' 'drop' and that's it. I don't understand the point of physically inflicting pain to get them to pick up or do anything when they are just calmly sitting and doing nothing wrong...

 

[LauraNJ]

Force fetch is actually not pain, it is pressure applied and the dog learns they are in control of that pressure. If you are using force fetch, you are training for a dog to be highly competitve in field training or for a few other things.

Force fetch is not used normally for just doing obedience or teaching the dog to pick something up. The dog is learning to push through and do things once given a command. Once they are trained, they are trained and really don't need the pressure any longer. The dogs who are force fetched work beautifully, are driven, motivated and very attentive. Alot of praise and rewards are also utilized with force fetch. It is a balance of pressure (dog can turn it off by doing correct thing) and reward for choosing correctly. There are quite a few videos online.

I have not done FF with a dog. I know dogs who are FF and I have used an electronic collar but FF is very specific and you really need someone experienced to guide you so it is done correctly. If done correctly,, it is like any other training tool, not much different than a prong collar, choke, head halter, harness, etc. All of those put pressure on a dog, when the dog doesn't pull, the pressure is turned off.

The only difference is most people rely way too long on training tools and they become the regualr collar instead of using them as intended which is as a tool so that the dog can be walked on a loose leash.

 

[JessicaR]

After consulting with the Superintendent of the 4h, it was decided he can stay in novice this year! That will give him time to work with Dusty.

Force retrieve is painful when you pinch a dogs ear to the point that he yelps to open his mouth, also I have never used an e-collar but I am sure being shocked is not pleasent either! Anyways the trainer uses 2 prong collars and has them pulled tight until the dog yelps or opens his mouth. I can say for sure that any of those methods used on a sheltie would result in a fearful dog that will shut down!They are way to sensitive for that kind of handeling. I refuse to use old school dominance training on my dogs. Its funny how he always comments on how my dog has the best heel he's seen, he was trained at a few months old using positive reinforcement only, not the jerk them into the right position.

 

[Secuono]

I agree, anytime a dog yelps or recoils it is pain.
I've been shocked by my 8,000 volt fence may times, I wouldn't say it's pain per se, but more of a weird, full body throbbing/thump. But I've also felt and ecollar shock, that is different. Feels more concentrated and it does sting, runs up the bone and then the thump feeling.
It's extremely easy to wrongly teach with electric/static shock. Very easy to ruin a dog, you have to be very careful and sensitive yourself. The slightest wrong move, cue, etc will teach the dog the wrong thing and it will be difficult to change that to what you actually meant.

 

[LauraNJ]

Once you have taught enough dogs in serious competition you will find that not any one method will work 100% of the time for all dogs.

The electronic collar is actually the same type of thing they use in physical therapy for muscle memory for people who have nerve damage. If used correctly it should not hurt the dog. It should be set to the lowest setting to get the dogs attention, the dog should not be yelping. I personally like the vibrate button and that is 99% of what I use when I am training with that collar. It is the same as a cell phone vibrating but it gets the dogs attention, especially important for off lead work and distance commands. I have tried it on myself, it is not even equivelent to getting a shock if you pull a plug out incorrectly, it is a small, quick electric feeling. Sorry I can't describe it better but it truely doesn't hurt. Feels weird but not painful.

If I had a trainer that was fitting prongs by making the dog yelp, I would find another trainer.

Positive is not actually all positive, the dog is learning by frustration, that is actually negative, people just perceive it as positive because they aren't actually correcting, the dog is having to get frustrated and figure out what the owner or handler wants and then that is reinforced by reward.

There is no one method that is always right for all dogs, it is what works for your dog that matters but you should always be open minded enough to learn new, different methods that in the future may help you. Trainers get into dangerous waters when they start thinking their way is the only way that works.

 

[3mina]

I have to respectfully disagree that if a dog yelps it's in pain, every time. A dog that is truly hurt stays quiet to hide the hurt. I have dozens of clients who have learned to control what their owners do with noise. Literally, I have people say to me "I can't do X because Fluffy will yell at me". This is totally outside the training issue though. I'm glad your son doesn't have to throw a bunch of last minute stuff at his dog, that just can't work on so many levels. I haven't done much formal training with my dogs for a few years, they pretty much get 'the house rules' and that's it. Rule #1 being 'You must listen to me' and Rule #2 'When in doubt see rule #1'

 

[JessicaR]

Once you have taught enough dogs in serious competition you will find that not any one method will work 100% of the time for all dogs.

The electronic collar is actually the same type of thing they use in physical therapy for muscle memory for people who have nerve damage. If used correctly it should not hurt the dog. It should be set to the lowest setting to get the dogs attention, the dog should not be yelping. I personally like the vibrate button and that is 99% of what I use when I am training with that collar. It is the same as a cell phone vibrating but it gets the dogs attention, especially important for off lead work and distance commands. I have tried it on myself, it is not even equivelent to getting a shock if you pull a plug out incorrectly, it is a small, quick electric feeling. Sorry I can't describe it better but it truely doesn't hurt. Feels weird but not painful.

If I had a trainer that was fitting prongs by making the dog yelp, I would find another trainer.

Positive is not actually all positive, the dog is learning by frustration, that is actually negative, people just perceive it as positive because they aren't actually correcting, the dog is having to get frustrated and figure out what the owner or handler wants and then that is reinforced by reward.

There is no one method that is always right for all dogs, it is what works for your dog that matters but you should always be open minded enough to learn new, different methods that in the future may help you. Trainers get into dangerous waters when they start thinking their way is the only way that works.

he doesnt fit the prongs to make the yelp, his method of the force retrieve is you put 2 prongs on 1 person pulls 1 direction another person pulls in the opposite until the dog yelps/opens his mouth then the dumbell is shoved in, he also does alot of chin slapping if the dog tries to drop it.

Like I said not a method I would even consider on a sheltie, they are far to submissive of a breed for that. I do understand that not 1 training method works on every dog, but I will always choose gentler methods if I can on my dogs. When I started training Dusty he was 8 weeks old, I would not say he got frustrated at all. When I taught him to heel it was off leash with peanut butter. He was free to go where he wanted, he got the pb when he stayed near me. He could and did occasionally walk off to sniff stuff. As he got older I added "Heel" when he was in the right position and slowley reduced the reward, he had a perfect heel by 6 months old. Granted he is the perfect dog, he is easy to train and doesnt need corrections. Actually the trainer told my son to correct him once for sitting to slow. That caused Dusty to lay down and shake. The trainer is a nice guy, but he is an ex military trainer so he is very strict and is used to training dogs that are not so sensitive.

3m, yes I agree that their are times when a dog yelps and they are not truly in pain,some have learned quite well that crying gets them their own way, but I believe that pinching and twisting an ear till they cry is painfull.

 

[Starsider]

As someone who is actively involved with clicker training, it's much easier to teach a dog without pain than it is to teach one WITH pain. You could easily capture a natural behavior such as picking an item up in the mouth with clicker training and breaking it down into smaller steps, and in my own personal experience, dogs learn MUCH faster and retain information much more easily with this method than others I have tried.

I really recommend picking up the book "Clicker Training for Dogs" by Karen Pryor, as well as "Reaching The Animal Mind" by the same. If you don't want to spend the money or download them as e-books, there are TONS of videos and sites that talk about clicker training that are more than happy to give you advice and work through the basics of it. I'm pretty much a newbie at it, but I've had some pretty amazing results with other animals I've worked with (I taught a pony how to fetch, and my own pet ferret to touch a target/come when given a visual signal).

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I'm a big fan of clicker training as well. I taught Chase how to "wave" in about 10 minutes without ever touching him in any way. I started by waiting for a shift of weight off of the right paw, clicked and treated, and he progressed from there- having to lift his paw a little further each time, until he was "reaching for the sky" with his paw.

I also clicker trained our mini donkey to take wormer willingly.

 

[3mina]

I train with a clicker but I'm not a clicker trainer. I'm not bright enough to do what Karen Pryor does so I use the clicker to mark what I want but im not adverse to showing the dog physically if they aren't getting it.