Tri & Lilac. What did I get?

Everyone was so helpful on my Sable/Fawn thread that Id really like some help with my first litter I had and whether you can help with the genetic coding.

Summer I was told is an Black & Orange Tri with the Vienna gene. I thought she was a tri with broken gene but maybe Vienna marked with a lot of white as per my Fawn




Sire - Bear Lilac Self. He does have a tiny spec of white on his paw.



Can you firstly see if you can give me their genetic makeup and possible outcomes? I thought i new and then when the babies were born I got terribly confused haha. I'll then post the babies a few days old and get some feedback. They didn't meet my expectation but they were all wonderful . Then ill post them at about 8 weeks old

Thank you all for your time.

First of all, I will mention that I think Summer is not a tri vienna, but a harlequin vienna. The difference is that tri is harlequin + broken, and it makes the black and orange form "spots" instead of the classic harlequin bands (Example).
She looks broken because of the Vienna gene causing the white splotches, but she doesn't seem to have a broken pattern (man, who named that coat type "broken"? It makes it sound so wrong lol)

Assuming I'm correct on that assessment, this is what we know genetics-wise:

Summer: <__B_C_D_ej_Vv>
Bear: <aabbC_ddE_> (may or may not be Vv based on the white paw)

The potential offspring will probably be... mostly either chestnut or black self, some Vienna-marked and some not, unless they have something else in the "hidden" genes. Here's why:
For every kit, you will get one of the "letters" from the parents. All of the capital letters (dominant) "take priority" over the underscore ones (recessive). Unless the kits get two recessive genes, the recessive gene does not show.
For all of Summer's kits, you have at least 50% chance she will pass down B, C and/or D (and A if she's agouti-based, which honestly I don't know how to distinguish in harlequins). For Bear, he will have at least a 50% chance to pass down C and/or E.

This means that most of the kits will probably be <aaB_C_D_E> (black self) or <AaB_C_D_E> (Chestnut). Some of them will be Vienna-marked (1/2 if only Summer has Vienna, 3/4 if Bear also has it) and if both of them carry Vienna then 25% will be BEW (blue-eyed white)

Now here's the fun stuff:
-You don't know what's "hidden" behind the dominant genes of your rabbits, but since Bear has double recessive in three of the 5 main locuses, he will be excellent at "revealing" Summer's hidden genes. If she has recessive genes in one or some of those genes, you may get a ton of other colours like blue, opal, lynx, cinnamon, etc etc. Add pictures of their litter once they're born and we will be able to help you build a much more complete picture of Summer's genotype.
-Aaaand it so happens that one of Bear's dominant genes, <E> (full extension), is matched by Summer's recessive <ej> (harlequin). If Bear is EE, you will get "harlequinised" babies, meaning that Summer's <ej> is not dominant but still manages to show through somewhat in agoutis. If Bear is anything other than EE, you will get harlequins or even potentially oranges.
-Due to all of this, the only thing we are sure of is that at least 50% will be full colour (<C_>, 100% if any of the two is <CC>) and at least 50% will be Vienna marked

I hope it was somewhat understandable, please let me know if anything needs more explanation

Thankyou, that was very comprehensive and some of the assumptions i had made also. Bear was not my original choice but he was proven and my buck was just slightly to young. We had a litter of 7 babies which i will post shortly when they were a few days old. Before breeding them i thought I would get as you described above but they have hidden recessive genes for sure. I am however not 100% sure still as they did not turn out how i was expecting.

These are the 7 as new born's

These are 5 days old. How would you describe their colours based on what we know about the parents? and do they tell us more about the parents recessive genes?

Awww they are adorable! You seem to have a bunch of chocolate, lilac and blue cuties, meaning (I think) that Summer is self-based and has recessive brown and dilute.

I THINK all of them have some vienna marks, I'm not sure about baby #3. If that baby also has vienna marks, you have this:

Summer: <aaBbC_Ddej_Vv>
Bear: <aabbC_ddEEVv>
Blue kits (the dark gray ones): <aaBbC_ddE_Vv>
Lilac kits (the light grey ones): <aabbC_ddE_Vv>
Chocolate kits (the brown ones): <aabbC_DdE_Vv>

In another litter, you could get black kits (aaBbC_DdE_) and BEW (aa_b____d__vv) which you don't seem to have gotten here, and any of these four colours without vienna marks (VV instead of Vv).

There is a small chance that Bear has something else in the second E locus, however considering all babies are E_, that would be very unlikely (he would have had to roll 7 heads in a row with no tails, to put it some way).

So the two blue splits (well i thought they were split but now vienna marked) both have blue eyes. As they grew i did think i saw light/dark patches as if they were harlequined but it could have been the lighting.

The blue self has a little white foot similar to Bear. She did not have blue eyes but brown!

The lilac self had a large white foot, a tiny white stripe on his head and brown eyes as you would expect.

Now this one confused me and what made me think Summer was Agouti. I can see a different shade on the back of his neck and sometimes round his eye. Its subtle and often shows more depending on the light. If it wasnt for the white it maybe more obvious?

Pinkears1979 said:

Now this one confused me and what made me think Summer was Agouti. I can see a different shade on the back of his neck and sometimes round his eye. Its subtle and often shows more depending on the light. If it wasnt for the white it maybe more obvious?

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The "shade" you see can simply be the harlequinised effect of having recessive <ej>. If you still have him, pull a couple of hairs from the coloured areas and take a picture against a black or white background (whichever makes it look clearer). If the hairs have bands of colours in them, you will know he is agouti (so "vienna-marked lynx" instead of vienna-marked lilac), if the hair shafts are one colour (perhaps slightly fading at the tips, but not "banded") he is self based.
At first glance he doesn't look like a lynx to me (Here are some examples) but that is the best way to make sure.

Pinkears1979 said:

As they grew i did think i saw light/dark patches as if they were harlequined but it could have been the lighting.

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At least half of your self-based kits would be "harlequinised" (or 100% if Summer is <ejej>). What you mention is what harlequinised looks like - Not very clear lighter/darker patches on a self rabbit.

I dont have him anymore, he is not lynx as doesn't have any Agouti markings. For some reason i thought harlequinized was A with Eej? and aa Eej would just appear like a standard self. Did i get that wrong? I got very confused with these babies lol The other option could have been aa Eje which i believe would appear patches of lilac and patches of tort.

Another thing to point out is Summer had a previous litter that had magpies (first breeder) so also means she has the chin gene? would that affect anything?

Pinkears1979 said:

For some reason i thought harlequinized was A with Eej? and aa Eej would just appear like a standard self. Did i get that wrong? I got very confused with these babies lol The other option could have been aa Eje which i believe would appear patches of lilac and patches of tort.

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You are right! I got completely confused there. It's like you say, harlequinization doesn't show in self kits.

Pinkears1979 said:

Another thing to point out is Summer had a previous litter that had magpies (first breeder) so also means she has the chin gene?

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That means she has something recessive in the C locus, so she is definitely not <CC>. It may be chin, but it may be anything else as well IF the chin came from the buck, because chin is dominant to light chin, Himalayan and REW. (So if the male gives chd, she can give either chd, chl, ch or c and it will produce a magpie).
If the sire from that litter was REW, himi or sable, you know she is the one with the chin gene. Otherwise, if you breed her to a REW, you would know for sure what that second C is.

Pinkears1979 said:

Would that affect anything?

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This means that Bear is probably <CC>. If Bear had something else in the second C, around 25% of the kits would not be full-colour. However with just 7 kits there is the chance that you just didn't get anyone with that combination.

So do we now think that Summer is Agouti based due to the possible Harlequinized bunnies?

A couple more photos of the Lilac, I exaggerated the contrast in colours on the first one so its more obvious. He has more of a chocolate or tort patch on his side and i also think on his face. If the white wasnt there it would have been way more obvious. My confusion is understanding how ej interacts with A and a and E and e. From memory the more chocolate looking patch was not Agouti so would that rule out A Eej? Could it be tort patch which would be aa Eej?


A few more photos of the blue split where you can see light/dark patches. Around the top of her eye and ear is dark and her cheek is lighter and then there are some lighter patches on the front and side. Could this be the Vienna Gene or chin influence?



Similar with the chocolate. There were 2 chocolates with blue eyes in the litter. One very much chocolate, even colour throughout (1st photo)
Then this lovely one that had a pretty solid chocolate on her head but then the light dark patches on her body. Again could this be harlequinized/chin or vienna marking? she didnt have any Agouti patches as far as i could tell just lighter/darker.

Pinkears1979 said:

So do we now think that Summer is Agouti based due to the possible Harlequinized bunnies?

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First of all, Harlequin can be A_, a(t)_ or aa.

The 'lilac' could be a blue tort, it's hard to see from the pics. Either way, this one and the others in your photos above, are all aa, self based. You can't see 'harlequinisation' on a self rabbit, it can only be seen on agouti and tan pattern/otter.

This is very interesting. If the Lilac was a blue tort would that make

Summer - AaBbC_DdejeVv
Bear - aabbC_ddEeVv

Blues - aaBbC_ddEeVv ( This could be Eej as doesn't show in self)
Lilac all over - aabbC_ddEeVv ( This could be Eej as doesn't show in self)
Lilac Tort - aabbC_ddeeVv
Chocolate - aabbC_DdEeVv ( This could be Eej as doesn't show in self)

The lighter patches/stripes could potentially be the Vienna gene doing weird things or if the chin gene is present?

Pinkears1979 said:

This is very interesting. If the Lilac was a blue tort would that make

Summer - AaBbC_DdejeVv
---
The lighter patches/stripes could potentially be the Vienna gene doing weird things or if the chin gene is present?

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Summer does not have to be Aa, she could be aa especially in view of the fact all the offspring are aa.
The Vienna gene doesn't affect the coat in that way, and neither does Chin.

ahhh just when i thought id got it all sorted! You make a good point that all the babies seem to be selfs. If the blue tort was a blue tort wouldnt he have more shading on the blue areas? His grey areas were pretty much the same colour as the lilac all over baby. Its a bit of a mystery.

so Summer could be aaBbC_DdejeVv. Is that right? How does a torted harlequin differ? I have always thought she was not a very clean harlequin she has patches of black and orange but then specs of orange in the black and black in the orange.

Is there no explanation for the paler patches that you can think of on the babies?