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BlueMeadow

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Hi! I raise New Zealands for meat, but I also have a pet holland lop. It’s my first time raising rabbits.
Recently, I bred my first two pairs of black and red rabbits and got a bunch of different color kits that were not what I was expecting, lol. So now I’m here to figure out what they are and what to do about it! I’m glad to be here!
 
Hi! I raise New Zealands for meat, but I also have a pet holland lop. It’s my first time raising rabbits.
Recently, I bred my first two pairs of black and red rabbits and got a bunch of different color kits that were not what I was expecting, lol. So now I’m here to figure out what they are and what to do about it! I’m glad to be here!
Hi!

Can you share photos of your rabbits and the kits? Sometimes, colours are not always what they seem. What colours are you hoping for?
There are a lot of knowledgeable people on the forum that could possibly answer your questions. I ask colour questions a lot . I enjoying exploring the genotypes of rabbits myself.
 
Hi!

Can you share photos of your rabbits and the kits? Sometimes, colours are not always what they seem. What colours are you hoping for?
There are a lot of knowledgeable people on the forum that could possibly answer your questions. I ask colour questions a lot . I enjoying exploring the genotypes of rabbits myself.
I have two blacks one of each and they are siblings. The same goes for my two reds. I also have one agouti buck unrelated to the other rabbits.
There were eight kits in each litter and this was everyone’s first litter. I got black, a mix of red and black, and two whites that have faint Californian markings and possibly red eyes because I noticed their eyes were opening a bit yesterday.
I really want reds and possibly blues, but I don’t think I have genes for blue in my herd though.
Here are the pictures
The ones with the wire nest box are from my black doe x red buck and the wooden nest box is red doe x black buck
I’m confused as to whether they are harlequin or not, and also I thought the whites were pure white and both parents had a c, but now I’m not sure? Whites are in the red does litter
 

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Mom was being stubborn and didn’t want to be photographed, so I uploaded an older photo. The others are my bucks. Red doe is sitting on the box
 

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I know red x black is one of the most volatile combinations for New Zealands, and I’m thinking that if I want more reds I should breed to my agouti and then bred the kits back to mom or uncle until I get reds unless I get reds right away
 
I have two blacks one of each and they are siblings. The same goes for my two reds. I also have one agouti buck unrelated to the other rabbits.
There were eight kits in each litter and this was everyone’s first litter. I got black, a mix of red and black, and two whites that have faint Californian markings and possibly red eyes because I noticed their eyes were opening a bit yesterday.
I really want reds and possibly blues, but I don’t think I have genes for blue in my herd though.
Here are the pictures
The ones with the wire nest box are from my black doe x red buck and the wooden nest box is red doe x black buck
I’m confused as to whether they are harlequin or not, and also I thought the whites were pure white and both parents had a c, but now I’m not sure? Whites are in the red does litter
Yes, you have harlequin! Any time you see distinct patches of red and black like that, it's a fair assumption that's what you're looking at. Every colored kit in your photos, other than the self black, looks harlequin to me. IMG_1109 and _1110 may be torted harlequins.

The harlequin <e(j)> will be hiding in one or both of the self blacks. Self <aa> will hide <e(j)> unless it's homozygous. The harlie allele can't be lurking in the reds since they're <ee>.

The white kits in IMG_1127 and _1122 have dark points; if their eyes are indeed pink, that indicates himalayan. Himis start out pure white and develop their points. A REW will never have any color anywhere. So you know at least one of your parent rabbits is <Cc(h)>, and the other is either <Cc(h)> or <Cc>.

Normally a red x black cross will give you a bunch of chestnuts, so the fact that you didn't get any is pretty interesting. If you want reds, use the red x red or the red x agouti. You need to get rid of the self alleles, which kits will always get a copy of if they have a self black parent. Breeding red x red will also eliminate the harlequin.

To get blues, you need dilute alleles <dd>. One or more of your rabbits may be carrying one copy of <d>. You won't know until some of their offspring get together; it can hide a long time.

I've found that red and blue are not great barnmates, since the dilute messes up the reds (you get fawns, which are pretty in a way but can look like washed-out reds if you really want reds). Because great reds need not only agouti and non-extension but also lots of modifiers intensifying the rufus coloration, it's been my experience that breeding red to red exclusively produces the best color because the modifiers seem to build up over generations. So, both your reds and your fawns tend to end up with more intense color.

Likewise, the self <aa> in the blues will foil your attempts to get reds - you'll keep getting blacks popping up, as well as opals (dilute agoutis) from the dilute <d>. And the non-extension <ee> in the reds eventually produces torts when it pairs up with the self <aa> in the blacks or blues.
 
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Thank you! This is exactly what I needed. I will pair my red doe with my chestnut agouti buck and see from there. I would like to breed my blacks to see if I can get some blue out of them, but I'm limited in my cage space. I will be sending one of my bucks to the freezer because 3 is really too many. I thought the chestnut was a doe when I bought him, and that's why I have 3. I would like to eventually show, but I don't know if that will happen right now so I think I will primarily focus on meat and pelts. I like the idea of fawns if I'm not showing, so I don't really mind that. How do you recommend I go about breeding to get some blues, especially on limited space? I have 6 holes, and five are being used. I also have 2 tractors I can convert so the babies live there full time if I need to.
 
Thank you! This is exactly what I needed. I will pair my red doe with my chestnut agouti buck and see from there. I would like to breed my blacks to see if I can get some blue out of them, but I'm limited in my cage space. I will be sending one of my bucks to the freezer because 3 is really too many. I thought the chestnut was a doe when I bought him, and that's why I have 3. I would like to eventually show, but I don't know if that will happen right now so I think I will primarily focus on meat and pelts. I like the idea of fawns if I'm not showing, so I don't really mind that. How do you recommend I go about breeding to get some blues, especially on limited space? I have 6 holes, and five are being used. I also have 2 tractors I can convert so the babies live there full time if I need to.
Can you get any information on the background of these rabbits? Even if you can't get pedigrees, if you could find out what color their parents were, it might be helpful.

To get blues, you need to find out if any of your rabbits carry a dilute allele <d>. It could be hiding in any, all, or none of them. The quickest way to find out would be to breed each of them to a dilute rabbit (e.g. blue, fawn, lilac, opal, lynx), if you can find one of those to "borrow." If you get any dilute kits you'd know your rabbit carries <d>. And once you get self blues, if your breed them together, blues are all you'll ever get (plus blue himis), since all kits will be <aa> and <dd>. (That's assuming none of the rabbits have a hidden chocolate <b>, which is a distinct possibility since many red breeders use a chocolate base.)

The next best would be to breed the siblings - red to red and black to black. Because they are closely related and more likely to share similar recessives, you might be able to expose those recessives. The other advantage to this is that red x red will almost certainly give you more reds, without the risk of harlequin tagging along. If you think you might want to show eventually, preserving a good red color - not losing those important modifiers that intensify the color - would be something to think about. It can take several generations to get them back. (This is a separate issue from dilute making red into fawn.) From the photo, your chestnut buck appears to have good rufus color, so he might be able to help diversify your red genetics without going too far backward in terms of rufus modifiers. If it was me, I'd breed the red doe to her red sibling once, and breed her to the chestnut buck the next time (or vice versa), and see which produces the nicer bunnies before getting rid of either buck. The reds already don't wow me with their color (the doe is clear but not intense red, while the buck seems to have better intensity but is not clear), so adding some more modifiers would be something to shoot for.

Some people refuse to breed siblings, but I have found that it is a good way to identify recessives, as well as to "set" genetic elements I want to increase in my herd. There is nothing inherently dangerous in sibling crosses in rabbits, unless the siblings both carry deleterious recessives - and that's something I want to know, anyway. Unless you already know there's something lurking that would be dangerous to the offspring, a single sib breeding most likely won't be problematic at all. You don't have to put the offspring back into the breeding program if you don't like the results - they're meat rabbits, after all. :LOL:

In any case, even if you find a dilute in one of your reds rather than your blues, you can use them to make blues. It's just a matter of linking up the double <dd> with the double <aa>.
 
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Wow, this is great!
Unfortunately I only know the parents for my reds. I got them from a breeder who was retiring. They had a red dad and a chestnut mom. The others I got from a guy who bought a bulk bundle of 30 rabbits from an auction because they wouldn’t sell him just one. He’s a farmer who knows nothing about rabbit breeds or anything like that, so he didn’t even know the chestnut litter he had was domestic 😅😂

I’m curious what Rufus is? How can you see it and tell if a rabbit has enough of it? I also am not impressed with my reds. I’m not impressed with my rabbits in general, but I have to work with what I’ve got due to my circumstances. My red buck has agouti coloring showing on his butt and head 😫 I’m not sure how that will affect his kids coloring.
Also, the rabbits who had the himi kits were the red buck and black doe.
 
Wow, this is great!
Unfortunately I only know the parents for my reds. I got them from a breeder who was retiring. They had a red dad and a chestnut mom. The others I got from a guy who bought a bulk bundle of 30 rabbits from an auction because they wouldn’t sell him just one. He’s a farmer who knows nothing about rabbit breeds or anything like that, so he didn’t even know the chestnut litter he had was domestic 😅😂

I’m curious what Rufus is? How can you see it and tell if a rabbit has enough of it? I also am not impressed with my reds. I’m not impressed with my rabbits in general, but I have to work with what I’ve got due to my circumstances. My red buck has agouti coloring showing on his butt and head 😫 I’m not sure how that will affect his kids coloring.
Also, the rabbits who had the himi kits were the red buck and black doe.
Yep, working with what you have, and culling ruthlessly for what you want, is the way most of us have to work. You can't produce something that your rabbits don't have to give, but you can make great strides in improving what you do have. ;) As far as quality, it's hard to say from a few candid photos, but your red buck looks like he has nice hindquarters (very important in a meat rabbit) and the red doe looks nicely-built too. They look like they probably come from some nice New Zealand stock. I don't think you're starting at ground zero! I can't see enough of the blacks to make even a guess about those.

"Rufus factors" are modifier genes that alter the expression of known alleles, in this case the color of the orange intermediate band of an agouti <A_>, as well as the trim on an otter <a(t)_>. (In a red, a chestnut agouti has the black color, which shows at the base and tip of the hair, suppressed by <ee> so the orange intermediate band is all that's left to show.) Researchers aren't really clear about modifiers' complex interactions in rabbit coat colors, as they don't behave like Mendelian autosomal genes. Personally, I think of them as a kind of "black box" that can help or hinder my breeding efforts. These modifiers exist in all rabbits, but in many colors no one is selecting for them, so you don't know what you're going to get when you outcross a red to another color. Rufus modfiers are just one example - there are many more modifiers, both known and unknown.

Without knowing the precise mechanisms, observations suggest that rufus modifiers seem to build up over generations. When writing out a genetic description of a color such as red, you can score the rufus modifiers according to a scale of 1 to 5 plusses, by looking at the orange color, e.g. <A_B_C_D_eeww +++>. Different breed standards have different preferences for red color, but that would be a nice NZ red. I have found that most judges find that to be a bit too much rufus for chestnuts, which I would guess are more on the order of ++ (though I prefer the redder chestnuts, myself, and they are the ones you want to use in a red program). You can gauge the number of modifiers by just looking at how intense the red color is on a red, how bright the red intermediate rings are on a chestnut, or how bright the tan trim is on an otter. Chestnuts with high rufus also tend to have a brighter surface color, while those with fewer rufus modifiers look duller, closer to gray-brown than chestnut.

Five plusses +++++ in a red gives you something like a Thrianta:
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There's site that gives a pretty good overview of modifiers in rabbit coat colors here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RabbitGenetics/wiki/modifiers/

The scattered agouti ticking on your red buck is called "smut," which is what I was referring to when I called his color "not clear." The doe, not having that smut, has "clear" color, though it is not intense red color. The non-extension alleles <ee> prevent most of the black agouti ticking, but again, there are modifiers that affect how much is left over, as well as another thing you need in reds (but which is not desirable in chestnuts), which is the recessive wideband gene <w>. Having two copies of that allele <ww> stretches out the orange intermediate band, and can be very helpful in clearing up smut. The fact that your reds had a red sire and a chestnut dam might explain the smut on your buck; perhaps he only got one copy of <w>.

If you breed your two reds together, you'll probably get a mix of both in the kits: some good, some not so good. Most people assume that using chestnuts with the reds produces smut, but I have found that's not always the case; it really depends on what the chestnut carries in terms of those modifiers that affect the ticking (which you never know until you breed them, since chestnuts are not generally heavily selected for those modifiers), and whether the chestnut has one, two or no copies of wideband. In any case, once you've got reds, breeding the rabbits with the least amount of smut will usually result in more rabbits with little or no smut.

Incidentally, that's why red breeders often like to breed a chocolate-based color rather than using a black base. Put simply, chocolate smut is less noticeable than black smut. However, I prefer to spend multiple generations eliminating that black smut because I have found that, all other things being equal, chocolate-based reds do not have quite the richness of color that the black-based reds do. The black-based reds also tend to have that dark-lashed doe-eyed look (which is my favorite feature of reds and chestnuts), while chocolate-based reds tend to have paler eyelids and lashes. Of course that's a personal preference which has nothing to do with show or meat quality, but I like my rabbits gorgeous. 😁

Regarding the himi kits, you now know that at either your red buck or your black doe is <Cc(h)>, and the other parent is either also <Cc(h)>, or is <Cc>. And since you got a self black from your self black doe <aa> x red buck, you know the red buck carries self <Aa>.

I'm kind of envious of all of you folks in the Lower 48 who can buy rabbits at auction. We have nothing like that up here. Although, it probably saves me from myself...I already have more rabbits than holes. :ROFLMAO:
 
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Your responses are so valuable, Alaska Satin! It's hard to find such comprehensive and well-written information on this topic!
Thanks! I really love being able to share what I've learned with people who are interested. At this point, most of my family has heard more about rabbit genetics than they ever dreamed or wanted... They haven't told me to shut up yet, but it's only because they love me. :ROFLMAO:

I also get to keep learning, a lot, from seeing photos, hearing about breeding results, and having to really think through some of the problems posed by folks on this forum, especially regarding colors I have not had much experience with in my own barn. It's like having the whole world as my personal experimental herd. 😁 I have also appreciated the expertise of those that have backgrounds I don't, for instance in wool breeds (@judymac), in the molecular/physiological bases of coat color (@reh) or in the varieties raised and shown in other countries (@MsTemeraire ), among others.

And while I'm expressing gratitude, I have to give a big thumbs-up to the moderators and administrators of RabbitTalk, who keep this forum cordial, constructive and family-friendly!
 
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It's like the internet at its best -- people from around the world with a common interest able to share ideas, knowledge, and questions. My family has also learned more about rabbit genetics than they really wanted to...

In rabbit news, I hope to have some puzzle-to-solve photos soon. There's a litter of kits expected in the next few days where the sire is orange and the doe is fawn. I'm not sure how I'll know which ones are which (fawn vs. orange) but I believe I can count on them all being one or the other.

I'm also hoping to collect the rufus modifiers as generations go on -- in pursuit of a bright, clear, red, angora-coated rabbit.
 
Yep, working with what you have, and culling ruthlessly for what you want, is the way most of us have to work. You can't produce something that your rabbits don't have to give, but you can make great strides in improving what you do have. ;) As far as quality, it's hard to say from a few candid photos, but your red buck looks like he has nice hindquarters (very important in a meat rabbit) and the red doe looks nicely-built too. They look like they probably come from some nice New Zealand stock. I don't think you're starting at ground zero! I can't see enough of the blacks to make even a guess about those.

"Rufus factors" are modifier genes that alter the expression of known alleles, in this case the color of the orange intermediate band of an agouti <A_>, as well as the trim on an otter <a(t)_>. (In a red, a chestnut agouti has the black color, which shows at the base and tip of the hair, suppressed by <ee> so the orange intermediate band is all that's left to show.) Researchers aren't really clear about modifiers' complex interactions in rabbit coat colors, as they don't behave like Mendelian autosomal genes. Personally, I think of them as a kind of "black box" that can help or hinder my breeding efforts. These modifiers exist in all rabbits, but in many colors no one is selecting for them, so you don't know what you're going to get when you outcross a red to another color. Rufus modfiers are just one example - there are many more modifiers, both known and unknown.

Without knowing the precise mechanisms, observations suggest that rufus modifiers seem to build up over generations. When writing out a genetic description of a color such as red, you can score the rufus modifiers according to a scale of 1 to 5 plusses, by looking at the orange color, e.g. <A_B_C_D_eeww +++>. Different breed standards have different preferences for red color, but that would be a nice NZ red. I have found that most judges find that to be a bit too much rufus for chestnuts, which I would guess are more on the order of ++ (though I prefer the redder chestnuts, myself, and they are the ones you want to use in a red program). You can gauge the number of modifiers by just looking at how intense the red color is on a red, how bright the red intermediate rings are on a chestnut, or how bright the tan trim is on an otter. Chestnuts with high rufus also tend to have a brighter surface color, while those with fewer rufus modifiers look duller, closer to gray-brown than chestnut.

Five plusses +++++ in a red gives you something like a Thrianta:
View attachment 44260
There's site that gives a pretty good overview of modifiers in rabbit coat colors here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RabbitGenetics/wiki/modifiers/

The scattered agouti ticking on your red buck is called "smut," which is what I was referring to when I called his color "not clear." The doe, not having that smut, has "clear" color, though it is not intense red color. The non-extension alleles <ee> prevent most of the black agouti ticking, but again, there are modifiers that affect how much is left over, as well as another thing you need in reds (but which is not desirable in chestnuts), which is the recessive wideband gene <w>. Having two copies of that allele <ww> stretches out the orange intermediate band, and can be very helpful in clearing up smut. The fact that your reds had a red sire and a chestnut dam might explain the smut on your buck; perhaps he only got one copy of <w>.

If you breed your two reds together, you'll probably get a mix of both in the kits: some good, some not so good. Most people assume that using chestnuts with the reds produces smut, but I have found that's not always the case; it really depends on what the chestnut carries in terms of those modifiers that affect the ticking (which you never know until you breed them, since chestnuts are not generally heavily selected for those modifiers), and whether the chestnut has one, two or no copies of wideband. In any case, once you've got reds, breeding the rabbits with the least amount of smut will usually result in more rabbits with little or no smut.

Incidentally, that's why red breeders often like to breed a chocolate-based color rather than using a black base. Put simply, chocolate smut is less noticeable than black smut. However, I prefer to spend multiple generations eliminating that black smut because I have found that, all other things being equal, chocolate-based reds do not have quite the richness of color that the black-based reds do. The black-based reds also tend to have that dark-lashed doe-eyed look (which is my favorite feature of reds and chestnuts), while chocolate-based reds tend to have paler eyelids and lashes. Of course that's a personal preference which has nothing to do with show or meat quality, but I like my rabbits gorgeous. 😁

Regarding the himi kits, you now know that at either your red buck or your black doe is <Cc(h)>, and the other parent is either also <Cc(h)>, or is <Cc>. And since you got a self black from your self black doe <aa> x red buck, you know the red buck carries self <Aa>.

I'm kind of envious of all of you folks in the Lower 48 who can buy rabbits at auction. We have nothing like that up here. Although, it probably saves me from myself...I already have more rabbits than holes. :ROFLMAO:
Thank you so much Alaska Satin! This really helps me understand what to look for and breed. I really appreciate your expertise and willingness to help me learn! My family has also heard way more about rabbits and their genetics than they care to hear. 🥲😂
My buck does have really nice hindquarters, so he’s one of my top candidates for meat breeding. My doe is pretty good too, though not as good as her brother. Also, one of her hind legs sticks out. I’m pretty sure she has pinched hindquarters, but only on one half. I’m not sure if it’ll carry to the babies, but it’s just another thing I’ll probably have to cull for.
My blacks are not meaty at all in comparison to my reds. The black doe is a good mom, and the black buck has pretty good stamina and he’s cute. 😂
The himmis actually came from my red doe x black buck outcross, (not sure if I clarified that or not) but it makes no difference. The genes are the same for the colors.
I’m out and about right now, but I’ll get you some nice pictures of them posed up. It’s been snowing where I am, so I haven’t been handling them as much.

I’m very excited to start breeding for these colors! I wanted to breed to improve my rabbits, but I didn’t know where to start. You gave me a very good place to start! I was a little concerned about the quality of my rabbits and second guessing my assessments of them, but I guess I was pretty spot on which is nice to hear!
 
Okay, I got the pictures! Also, update - I think some of my self blacks are actually gold tipped steel possibly. Only the ones from my black doe’s litter so far. I’ll attach pictures. I’d appreciate it if you could tell me if they are! Below are the kit and my red doe. Also, please forgive my blotchy hands! It’s been really cold in Ohio.
 

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This is my red buck. I took extra pictures of all his smut and white tips.
 

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This is my black buck. He and his sister both have stray white spots, though he has a lot more, and a browning cast that has gotten better since they’ve molted into their winter coats.
 

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And finally my chestnut agouti buck. He has a really poor body, but his temperament is the sweetest and most docile of all my rabbits and his fur is so luxurious. I’d really appreciate your insight into what to do as far as breeding and culling them!
 

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