White silver foxes?

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN · Nov 15, 2024

One of my does, Darlin (a black silver fox), kindled today and had 7 kits. I bred her to my new buck, Dusk (who is also a black silver fox), and his entire pedigree is black. Darlin has kindled before with a different buck (a chocolate silver fox), and she was a wonderful mother, producing some blacks and chocolates.
Today, she kindled again and had blacks, lilacs, and whites! I’ve heard of white silver foxes but have never seen one in person. I’m confused about how she ended up with whites. I don’t know much about color genetics, so could someone please explain this to me?
I know Dusk is a full silver and trust the breeder completely; she wouldn’t have sold him to me if there was any chance he was mixed. Darlin’s dam (a black silver fox) was from Debra Armstrong, a well-known breeder in our area. The sire (the chocolate silver fox) was a full silver fox, but I don’t have his pedigree.
How do you create a white silver fox?

Thanks so much! (Pictures of the litter are below.)

Scooter1A · Nov 15, 2024

Those are super nice babies.

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN · Nov 15, 2024

Thank you

Alaska Satin · Nov 15, 2024

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN said:
One of my does, Darlin (a black silver fox), kindled today and had 7 kits. I bred her to my new buck, Dusk (who is also a black silver fox), and his entire pedigree is black. Darlin has kindled before with a different buck (a chocolate silver fox), and she was a wonderful mother, producing some blacks and chocolates.
Today, she kindled again and had blacks, lilacs, and whites! I’ve heard of white silver foxes but have never seen one in person. I’m confused about how she ended up with whites. I don’t know much about color genetics, so could someone please explain this to me?
I know Dusk is a full silver and trust the breeder completely; she wouldn’t have sold him to me if there was any chance he was mixed. Darlin’s dam (a black silver fox) was from Debra Armstrong, a well-known breeder in our area. The sire (the chocolate silver fox) was a full silver fox, but I don’t have his pedigree.
How do you create a white silver fox?

Thanks so much! (Pictures of the litter are below.)

Usually whites pop out of colored lines when both parents carry a copy of the most recessive allele on the C locus, REW <c>. Those alleles, when paired, prevent any color from being produced anywhere on the rabbit, including the eyes. Some people call it albino, and many people who are otherwise uninterested in genetics know that if you breed two albinos, that's all you'll ever get. But what many people don't know is that one copy of the allele can "hide" for a very long time, until by chance two rabbits (this is also true in many other species) that carry a hidden copy meet and mate, and some of their offspring get two copies - voila, you pull a white rabbit out of the hat.

When this happens, it does not mean your rabbits aren't purebred or well-bred - it just means that a <c> has been lurking for some unknown number of generations. (I had a white Mini Rex show up in a litter from rabbits for which I had eight generation pedigrees.) It is not at all surprising in meat breeds, since NZ whites have been used to improve type and growth rates in many other meat breeds. That's not saying these rabbits or their parents aren't purebred, just that somewhere in the mists of time (or a least farther back than the original stock's 3-generation pedigrees), there was a white rabbit, or at least one carrying <c>, and that has been passed down through the generations.

So, black Silver Fox are typically <aaB_C_D_E_sisi>, with the understrike after the big <C> (which is normal color) being where the little <c> REW can hide. After this litter, you know more about the other places that are marked with an understrike. What you now suspect is that both of the black parents are actually <aaBbCcDdE_sisi>. They're still self <aa> and normal extension <E_> (although there is some debate about them possibly being steel <E(S)>, but that's another issue). But since you got lilac, which is a chocolate <bb> dilute <dd>, you know that both parents also carry a copy of chocolate <b> and dilute <d> after the dominant alleles that make them look black. And if they made white, you also know that both carry a <c> along with the <C> that makes them full-color themselves.

An interesting thing about albino rabbits is that genetically, they are still a colored and patterned rabbit. They can be chestnut, chocolate otter, self blue, black with silvering... everything else in their genetic code is basically "turned off." The only things they cannot be/carry are the chinchilla, sable or himalayan varieties, because those varieties are produced from alleles on the C locus. Since there are normally only two spots available at any particular locus, <cc> takes up the space so there can't be any other option present.

Finally, there is a slight possibility that they are not white, but himalayan <c(h)_>, which start out all-white and develop the points as they grow. In this case, you have <aaBbc(h)_ddE_>, and the parents could either both be <Cc(h)> or one <Cc(h)> and one <Cc>. Like the NZW, Californians are often used to improve type and growth rates, so it's a possibility.

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN · Nov 15, 2024

Alaska Satin said:
Usually whites pop out of colored lines when both parents carry a copy of the most recessive allele on the C locus, REW <c>. Those alleles, when paired, prevent any color from being produced anywhere on the rabbit, including the eyes. Some people call it albino, and many people who are otherwise uninterested in genetics know that if you breed two albinos, that's all you'll ever get. But what many people don't know is that one copy of the allele can "hide" for a very long time, until by chance two rabbits (this is also true in many other species) that carry a hidden copy meet and mate, and some of their offspring get two copies - voila, you pull a white rabbit out of the hat.

When this happens, it does not mean your rabbits aren't purebred or well-bred - it just means that a <c> has been lurking for some unknown number of generations. (I had a white Mini Rex show up in a litter from rabbits for which I had eight generation pedigrees.) It is not at all surprising in meat breeds, since NZ whites have been used to improve type and growth rates in many other meat breeds. That's not saying these rabbits or their parents aren't purebred, just that somewhere in the mists of time (or a least farther back than the original stock's 3-generation pedigrees), there was a white rabbit, or at least one carrying <c>, and that has been passed down through the generations.

So, black Silver Fox are typically <aaB_C_D_E_sisi>, with the understrike after the big <C> (which is normal color) being where the little <c> REW can hide. After this litter, you know more about the other places that are marked with an understrike. What you now suspect is that both of the black parents are actually <aaBbCcDdE_sisi>. They're still self <aa> and normal extension <E_> (although there is some debate about them possibly being steel <E(S)>, but that's another issue). But since you got lilac, which is a chocolate <bb> dilute <dd>, you know that both parents also carry a copy of chocolate <b> and dilute <d> after the dominant alleles that make them look black. And if they made white, you also know that both carry a <c> along with the <C> that makes them full-color themselves.

An interesting thing about albino rabbits is that genetically, they are still a colored and patterned rabbit. They can be chestnut, chocolate otter, self blue, black with silvering... everything else in their genetic code is basically "turned off." The only things they cannot be/carry are the chinchilla, sable or himalayan varieties, because those varieties are produced from alleles on the C locus. Since there are normally only two spots available at any particular locus, <cc> takes up the space so there can't be any other option present.

Finally, there is a slight possibility that they are not white, but himalayan <c(h)_>, which start out all-white and develop the points as they grow. In this case, you have <aaBbc(h)_ddE_>, and the parents could either both be <Cc(h)> or one <Cc(h)> and one <Cc>. Like the NZW, Californians are often used to improve type and growth rates, so it's a possibility.

So basically, I have a white silver fox

lol. How/Where did you learn all of this, I want to learn more about color genes but don't know where to start. Thanks so much.

Alaska Satin · Nov 15, 2024

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN said:
So basically, I have a white silver foxlol. How/Where did you learn all of this, I want to learn more about color genes but don't know where to start. Thanks so much.

Yes! (Or maybe himi SF...) I like very sleek rabbits, myself, but I was thinking that a white SF might actually be pretty cool, like an arctic fox.

I have a long background in genetics, but a lot of what I've learned about rabbit coat colors, specifically, has been breeding experimentation (aka trial and error... lots of error

). However, one book that really helped me identify colors and sort out the basics of what I was seeing is ABC - About Bunny Colors by Ellyn Eddy. You can order it a number of places, including here:
https://www.allthingsbunnies.com/ABC-About-Bunny-Colors-p/bks107.htm

It works you through the essentials of genetic inheritance and expression, but in language that a rabbit breeder can use, rather than someone who wants to go into genetics more academically. Eddy is very methodical in her presentation, so you shouldn't feel overwhelmed. In fact I think rabbit coat colors are the ideal way to learn functional genetics: there are enough alleles and interactions to keep it interesting, but not so many balls in the air that your head swims (I'm thinking goat and horse colors...). There is also a lot more information on the genetic underpinnings of rabbit coat colors than there is on some other species.

Although I certainly recognize their value, I do not have any great affection for computers.

I just prefer to read books and have the paper right in front of me whenever I want it. But I am sure there must be websites that offer this basic information, and other readers might be able to offer their recommendations for those.

After you get the basics down, there are a few really outstanding photographic guides on websites that can help refine your identification and understanding of the more complicated colors, for instance sable-, non-extension- or harlequin-influenced varieties. The advantage of these websites is that, while the colors vary on different screens, the websites offer a lot more photographic examples of the varieties than a simple color-printed booklet can do. Coat colors can vary quite a bit in the various fur types - satin, rex, and angora varieties can look pretty different from the same variety in normal fur - so I have a number of different web pages that I use.

Holland Lops have a coat somewhat more similar to SF than other breeds - it's a bit longer and more dense - and Hollands come in a lot of recognized varieties, so these might be especially useful to you.:
https://hickoryridgehollands.com/holland-lop-color-guide
https://happilyeverafterrabbitry.com/index.php/holland-lop-color-chart/
https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml

I also love Mink Hollow's rex site
https://www.minkhollow.ca/rabbits/doku.php?id=rabbit_colors

and Wild River Rabbitry's Mini Rex site, which has fantastic detail photos of ring color:
https://wildriverrabbitry.weebly.com/mini-rex-color-guide.html

Good luck and have fun! Coat color genetics can really become a proverbial rabbit hole...

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN · Nov 15, 2024

Alaska Satin said:
Yes! (Or maybe himi SF...) I like very sleek rabbits, myself, but I was thinking that a white SF might actually be pretty cool, like an arctic fox.

I have a long background in genetics, but a lot of what I've learned about rabbit coat colors, specifically, has been breeding experimentation (aka trial and error... lots of error ). However, one book that really helped me identify colors and sort out the basics of what I was seeing is ABC - About Bunny Colors by Ellyn Eddy. You can order it a number of places, including here:
https://www.allthingsbunnies.com/ABC-About-Bunny-Colors-p/bks107.htm

It works you through the essentials of genetic inheritance and expression, but in language that a rabbit breeder can use, rather than someone who wants to go into genetics more academically. Eddy is very methodical in her presentation, so you shouldn't feel overwhelmed. In fact I think rabbit coat colors are the ideal way to learn functional genetics: there are enough alleles and interactions to keep it interesting, but not so many balls in the air that your head swims (I'm thinking goat and horse colors...). There is also a lot more information on the genetic underpinnings of rabbit coat colors than there is on some other species.

Although I certainly recognize their value, I do not have any great affection for computers. I just prefer to read books and have the paper right in front of me whenever I want it. But I am sure there must be websites that offer this basic information, and other readers might be able to offer their recommendations for those.

After you get the basics down, there are a few really outstanding photographic guides on websites that can help refine your identification and understanding of the more complicated colors, for instance sable-, non-extension- or harlequin-influenced varieties. The advantage of these websites is that, while the colors vary on different screens, the websites offer a lot more photographic examples of the varieties than a simple color-printed booklet can do. Coat colors can vary quite a bit in the various fur types - satin, rex, and angora varieties can look pretty different from the same variety in normal fur - so I have a number of different web pages that I use.

Holland Lops have a coat somewhat more similar to SF than other breeds - it's a bit longer and more dense - and Hollands come in a lot of recognized varieties, so these might be especially useful to you.:
https://hickoryridgehollands.com/holland-lop-color-guide
https://happilyeverafterrabbitry.com/index.php/holland-lop-color-chart/
https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml

I also love Mink Hollow's rex site
https://www.minkhollow.ca/rabbits/doku.php?id=rabbit_colors

and Wild River Rabbitry's Mini Rex site, which has fantastic detail photos of ring color:
https://wildriverrabbitry.weebly.com/mini-rex-color-guide.html

Good luck and have fun! Coat color genetics can really become a proverbial rabbit hole...

Lol, my mom thought they should be called arctic silver fox too when I told her about it. I'd take a good book over the internet any day. I really appreciate your help!

MsTemeraire · Nov 16, 2024

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN said:
Lol, my mom thought they should be called arctic silver fox too when I told her about it. I'd take a good book over the internet any day. I really appreciate your help!

Or you could call them Polar Fox.

hotzcatz · Nov 18, 2024

And if you breed a Polar Fox to an Arctic Fox, you'll get all Polar White Arctic Foxes as offspring.

__ __ cc __ __ bred to __ __ cc __ __ creates more of the exact same white rabbits. Which, if it's an allowable color in your breed (an albino Silver Fox isn't showable is it? But I don't know much of anything about showing Silver Foxes) is really handy since breeding albino to albino produces only albino and you don't have to worry about an odd color DQ on the show table.

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN · Nov 18, 2024

hotzcatz said:
And if you breed a Polar Fox to an Arctic Fox, you'll get all Polar White Arctic Foxes as offspring.

__ __ cc __ __ bred to __ __ cc __ __ creates more of the exact same white rabbits. Which, if it's an allowable color in your breed (an albino Silver Fox isn't showable is it? But I don't know much of anything about showing Silver Foxes) is really handy since breeding albino to albino produces only albino and you don't have to worry about an odd color DQ on the show table.

ARBA only recognizes black and chocolate, I've been told they are in the prosses with blues. Though you can show all the colors (white, black, blue, and chocolate) at specialty shows (it might be called something else, but I know there is a special show where you can show all the colors lol).

hotzcatz · Nov 18, 2024

ARBA gets fussy about colors, but since Silver Fox is mostly about the color, having albino ones wouldn't be all that spectacular, would they? Kinda makes sense, like a Palomino or Appaloosa horse, if they were white, they'd not be a Palomino or Appy.

Does ARBA get fussy about Vienna marks on Silver Fox? It's a major problem with English angoras.

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN · Nov 18, 2024

hotzcatz said:
ARBA gets fussy about colors, but since Silver Fox is mostly about the color, having albino ones wouldn't be all that spectacular, would they? Kinda makes sense, like a Palomino or Appaloosa horse, if they were white, they'd not be a Palomino or Appy.

Does ARBA get fussy about Vienna marks on Silver Fox? It's a major problem with English angoras.

I believe it's a disqualification if a Silver Fox has a Vienna mark. I have only seen a few Silver Foxes with Vienna marks. Though they look pretty cute (well doesn't any rabbit looks cute? lol).

Alaska Satin · Nov 18, 2024

hotzcatz said:
ARBA gets fussy about colors, but since Silver Fox is mostly about the color, having albino ones wouldn't be all that spectacular, would they? Kinda makes sense, like a Palomino or Appaloosa horse, if they were white, they'd not be a Palomino or Appy.

Well, the silvering is important, but there are four other silvered breeds recognized in the U.S. (Silver, Champagne D'Argent, Argente Brun and Creme D'Argent) and another on the way to recognition, the Argente St Hubert. What really makes the Silver Fox unique is its coat type. There is no other American breed with fur like SF fur; it's longer than a normal coat, and ideally has absolutely no rollback. It's like a bad hair day, where you get up and your hair stays exactly as it was pushed by your pillow.

In the ARBA Silver Fox SOP, fur is just as important (20pts) as silvering (also 20pts); in fact a SF is actually disqualified if its fur snaps back like a commercial coat.

The Silver Fox rabbit was developed to imitate real fox fur, and the color was an additional consideration, to make it look like one of the most valuable colors in fox (the "silver fox," which is a melanistic red fox). So if you had an all-white rabbit with that kind of fur, it might be pretty striking, and certainly different from other REW rabbits. Actually, I think I might like a white SF even better than the colors that are being bred now.

hotzcatz said:
Does ARBA get fussy about Vienna marks on Silver Fox? It's a major problem with English angoras.

Pretty much all breeds' SOPs are fussy about vienna marks. They usually appear to be what would usually be considered "white spots in a colored area," which is a General DQ. Of course any breed allowing broken colored varieties might allow for vienna marks, but a problem with vienna, even in brokens, is that it can take color way from places a broken needs it, especially the nose (that's actually one of the ways we identified vienna carriers in our broken Polish).

kusanar314 · Friday at 10:40 AM

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN said:
How/Where did you learn all of this, I want to learn more about color genes but don't know where to start. Thanks so much.

Alaska Satin said:
But I am sure there must be websites that offer this basic information, and other readers might be able to offer their recommendations for those.

https://www.leporidae.org/

This is an online game, but it has real genetics and they try to keep it as up to date as possible. An in game month is 1 real life day, so you can cycle through generations very quickly and it shows the genotype and phenotype on every rabbit.

If you breed on Monday:
Tuesday: Newborns in the jelly bean stage, you can see skin colors but no genotype yet
Wednesday: 1 month old. See the kit poses and genotype is available
Thursday: 2 months old
Friday: 3 months old
Saturday: 4 months old - bucks can breed today
Sunday: 5 months old
Monday: 6 months old - does can breed today

So a full generation from breeding to breeding the kits in 1 real life week.

I'm player 2763 or Kusanar3 if anyone wants to join and I can try to help with game dynamics if you want.

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN · Friday at 1:07 PM

kusanar314 said:
https://www.leporidae.org/

This is an online game, but it has real genetics and they try to keep it as up to date as possible. An in game month is 1 real life day, so you can cycle through generations very quickly and it shows the genotype and phenotype on every rabbit.

If you breed on Monday:
Tuesday: Newborns in the jelly bean stage, you can see skin colors but no genotype yet
Wednesday: 1 month old. See the kit poses and genotype is available
Thursday: 2 months old
Friday: 3 months old
Saturday: 4 months old - bucks can breed today
Sunday: 5 months old
Monday: 6 months old - does can breed today

So a full generation from breeding to breeding the kits in 1 real life week.

I'm player 2763 or Kusanar3 if anyone wants to join and I can try to help with game dynamics if you want.

Thanks!

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN · Friday at 1:27 PM

kusanar314 said:
https://www.leporidae.org/

This is an online game, but it has real genetics and they try to keep it as up to date as possible. An in game month is 1 real life day, so you can cycle through generations very quickly and it shows the genotype and phenotype on every rabbit.

If you breed on Monday:
Tuesday: Newborns in the jelly bean stage, you can see skin colors but no genotype yet
Wednesday: 1 month old. See the kit poses and genotype is available
Thursday: 2 months old
Friday: 3 months old
Saturday: 4 months old - bucks can breed today
Sunday: 5 months old
Monday: 6 months old - does can breed today

So a full generation from breeding to breeding the kits in 1 real life week.

I'm player 2763 or Kusanar3 if anyone wants to join and I can try to help with game dynamics if you want.

I tried to sign up and it said this
You need an invite link to sign up.
Leporidae has open registration on Saturdays. If you do not have an invite, come back on Saturday to sign up
Do you have an invite link you can send me? If not I can just wait till tomorrow and see if it works. Thanks!

kusanar314 · Friday at 1:55 PM

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN said:
I tried to sign up and it said this
You need an invite link to sign up.
Leporidae has open registration on Saturdays. If you do not have an invite, come back on Saturday to sign up
Do you have an invite link you can send me? If not I can just wait till tomorrow and see if it works. Thanks!

I forgot about that.

Here are several open ones so just in case more people want in.

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=762302

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=111246

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=672597

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=681741

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=600431

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=33712

RABBITGIRLFORTHEWIN · Friday at 2:02 PM

kusanar314 said:
I forgot about that.

Here are several open ones so just in case more people want in.

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=762302

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=111246

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=672597

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=681741

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=600431

https://www.leporidae.org/signup.php?referid=2763&access=33712

Thanks!

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