What would i get from this pairing ?

Maisier · Sep 27, 2024

I was told they are all californian x flemish giant.
I have 2 does who are siamese sable and 1 buck who is wild colouring with a white sock.
What colours would these produce?
What would be best to breed to these females for a colourful litter?

Alaska Satin · Sep 28, 2024

Maisier said:
I was told they are all californian x flemish giant.
I have 2 does who are siamese sable and 1 buck who is wild colouring with a white sock.
What colours would these produce?
What would be best to breed to these females for a colourful litter?

Some of the kits will likely be wild type, often called chestnut, but the rest really depends on what your buck is "hiding" genetically, as well as what the does carry at some of their loci. You could possibly get anything from opals, to chinchillas, to self blacks and blues, to more sables, himalayans, or whites (either blue-eyed or ruby-eyed). The only thing I think you could possibly rule out at this point would be steels, though there's even a faint chance that could be hiding in one or both of the does. If you knew what colors your rabbits' parents were, or knew what color kits they've already produced, you could make a better guess.

The buck's white foot could be due to several different genes, including broken <En>, vienna aka blue-eyed white <vv>, or even dutch <du> though that last one usually makes more than a white foot. If it's from the broken gene, about half his bunnies will also be broken; if it's from the vienna or dutch genes, some of his bunnies may also get random white marks.

So, depending on what your buck carries, you may get a very colorful litter from him with those does!

Chestnut is produced by dominant alleles (forms of genes) at almost all loci (places on the genome), so every locus can possibly carry one or another recessive. A chestnut is <A_B_C_D_E_>, where the dominant allele is indicated by a capital and the understrike means you don't know what is in the second place (there are exactly two alleles at each locus, one inherited from each of the parents).
A = agouti (not otter or self)
B = black (not chocolate)
C= full color
D = dense color (not dilute)
E = normal extension, meaning the fur has normal bands of color like you will see on your buck if you blow into his fur. Unlike the preceding four alleles, this isn't technically the most dominant form on the E series; there are two more dominant forms, steel <E(S)> and dominant black <E(D)>, but they won't be hiding in a chestnut.

Siamese sable is produced by a couple of recessive alleles, so it's this: <aaB_c(chl)_D_E_>. It's a "self" <aa>, meaning there's no banding on any of the fur, and no agouti "trim" inside the ears, around the eyes, along the jaw, and under the belly and tail. It's also "shaded" which comes from the partially recessive shaded or sable allele (formerly known as chinchilla light hence the <c(chl)> notation). It's a little surprising that you'd get siamese sables from a Cal x Flemish cross since neither breed should carry sable (in fact, Californians cannot carry sable as himi is recessive to sable), but once people start crossbreeding, it's no holds barred genetics.

Maisier · Sep 28, 2024

Alaska Satin said:
Some of the kits will likely be wild type, often called chestnut, but the rest really depends on what your buck is "hiding" genetically, as well as what the does carry at some of their loci. You could possibly get anything from opals, to chinchillas, to self blacks and blues, to more sables, himalayans, or whites (either blue-eyed or ruby-eyed). The only thing I think you could possibly rule out at this point would be steels, though there's even a faint chance that could be hiding in one or both of the does. If you knew what colors your rabbits' parents were, or knew what color kits they've already produced, you could make a better guess.

The buck's white foot could be due to several different genes, including broken <En>, vienna aka blue-eyed white <vv>, or even dutch <du> though that last one usually makes more than a white foot. If it's from the broken gene, about half his bunnies will also be broken; if it's from the vienna or dutch genes, some of his bunnies may also get random white marks.

So, depending on what your buck carries, you may get a very colorful litter from him with those does!

Chestnut is produced by dominant alleles (forms of genes) at almost all loci (places on the genome), so every locus can possibly carry one or another recessive. A chestnut is <A_B_C_D_E_>, where the dominant allele is indicated by a capital and the understrike means you don't know what is in the second place (there are exactly two alleles at each locus, one inherited from each of the parents).
A = agouti (not otter or self)
B = black (not chocolate)
C= full color
D = dense color (not dilute)
E = normal extension, meaning the fur has normal bands of color like you will see on your buck if you blow into his fur. Unlike the preceding four alleles, this isn't technically the most dominant form on the E series; there are two more dominant forms, steel <E(S)> and dominant black <E(D)>, but they won't be hiding in a chestnut.

Siamese sable is produced by a couple of recessive alleles, so it's this: <aaB_c(chl)_D_E_>. It's a "self" <aa>, meaning there's no banding on any of the fur, and no agouti "trim" inside the ears, around the eyes, along the jaw, and under the belly and tail. It's also "shaded" which comes from the partially recessive shaded or sable allele (formerly known as chinchilla light hence the <c(chl)> notation). It's a little surprising that you'd get siamese sables from a Cal x Flemish cross since neither breed should carry sable (in fact, Californians cannot carry sable as himi is recessive to sable), but once people start crossbreeding, it's no holds barred genetics.

Thank you so much for the information! I was told they were siamese sable but that's only one opinion. I will attach some photos. They are 5 months old and were chocolate 2 months ago when I got them and now their bodies are lightening and their faces, feet and tails have gotten darker. I believe their bodies will still get lighter. I am not 100% but from the photos shown when i bought them their siblings were black, white, with dark features, chinchilla looking and wild type colouring. Would love to know what colour you think they are and what they would produce with the male I mentioned again!

RabbitsOfTheCreek · Sep 28, 2024

Maisier said:
Thank you so much for the information! I was told they were siamese sable but that's only one opinion. I will attach some photos. They are 5 months old and were chocolate 2 months ago when I got them and now their bodies are lightening and their faces, feet and tails have gotten darker. I believe their bodies will still get lighter. I am not 100% but from the photos shown when i bought them their siblings were black, white, with dark features, chinchilla looking and wild type colouring. Would love to know what colour you think they are and what they would produce with the male I mentioned again!

Looks Sable to me, the white marks on the nose, forehead, and toe definitely says vienna to me

Alaska Satin · Sep 28, 2024

Maisier said:
Thank you so much for the information! I was told they were siamese sable but that's only one opinion. I will attach some photos. They are 5 months old and were chocolate 2 months ago when I got them and now their bodies are lightening and their faces, feet and tails have gotten darker. I believe their bodies will still get lighter.

Yep, those look like sables to me, probably vienna-marked (VM) which suggests that your buck is also a VM <Vv>.

Sables are born looking like pale blues, go through a chocolatey phase, then molt into that shaded sepia. They're getting so pale on the body that there's a chance they are non-extension sables aka sable point <aaB_c(chl)_D_ee>. Most of my sable points have been obviously pointed from early on, not that overall dark color that your bunnies were, but I find that the sable allele is quite variable, so I would have hard time saying for sure which yours are.

Here's a young American Sable:

Here's a (relatively dark) sable point Holland Lop:

What you do know, though, is that if they are sable points, both of their parents at least carried non-extension <e>, if not being a non-extension color <ee> themselves.

I am not 100% but from the photos shown when i bought them their siblings were black, white, with dark features, chinchilla looking and wild type colouring.

The blacks were probably either self blacks <aaB_C_D_E_> or self chinchillas <aaB_c(chd)_D_E_>, but they could also be seal, which is a rabbit that got two copies of the sable allele <c(chl)c(chl)> and looks like a slightly washed-out black.

The white with dark features, if by that you mean dark eyes, would be non-extension chinchillas aka ermines <A_B_c(chd)_D_ee> or non-extension self chins aka sallander <aaB_c(chd)_D_ee>. If their siblings were ermine or sallander, then you know for sure both parents carried non-extension <e>.

On the other hand, if by white with dark features you meant himalayan (white body, pink eyes, dark nose, ears, feet and tail), that would be reasonable from a Californian ancestor.

MsTemeraire · Sep 28, 2024

Alaska Satin said:
It's a little surprising that you'd get siamese sables from a Cal x Flemish cross since neither breed should carry sable (in fact, Californians cannot carry sable as himi is recessive to sable), but once people start crossbreeding, it's no holds barred genetics.

OP is in Australia, where breed gene pools are very tiny due to import restrictions, so crossing is not unusual.