Mk.mom.13
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So if you have a broken black that Carries tri and you breed her to a harlequin who also carries tri?
Harli/tri genetics
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Tricolor rabbits are broken harlequins. There are two genes necessary to make tri:
- broken <Enen>, which is dominant and can't "hide" (except in a BEW or REW)
and
- harlequin <e(j)_> which can hide, but not very often
So, since it takes two alleles, and at least one of them is dominant, rabbits can't really carry tri. However, your two rabbits may very well produce tricolors anyway.
The broken black definitely has the broken allele, and about half of her offspring will be broken. She may or may not carry harlequin behind a normal full-color <E>. Or, a dominant <e(j)> could hide because it might not show up on a self rabbit (and a black is a self). But that's not necessarily a deal-breaker, because...
The harlequin has the <e(j)> needed. He cannot carry broken, since broken is dominant so it can't be carried in a solid color rabbit, but you only need one broken-color rabbit in the pair to make broken-colored kits.
So if you breed him to a broken doe, you'll probably get about half the litter being brokens. And, if the harlequin from him and the broken allele from the doe end up on the same kit, depending on a few other considerations, you could see a tri (or two or three).
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Dose anyone know what I could get with these chocolate breeding pairs?
Chocolate magpie - chocolate agouti
Chocolate magpie - chocolate
Chocolate magpie - broken chocolate
Chocolate magpie - chocolate frosty
Chocolate magpie - chocolate harlequin
I’m just looking to get a knew for and am wondering what it could produce. Thank you!
Chocolate magpie - chocolate agouti
Chocolate magpie - chocolate
Chocolate magpie - broken chocolate
Chocolate magpie - chocolate frosty
Chocolate magpie - chocolate harlequin
I’m just looking to get a knew for and am wondering what it could produce. Thank you!
Chocolate magpie is generally an agouti A_, recessive brown bb, chinchilla c(chd)_, dense color D_, and harlequin e(j)_. Chocolate agouti is generally agouti A_, recessive brown bb, full color C_, dense color D_, normal extension E_. Those dashes are for unknown genes that may be behind the dominant one, and the key to what kits you might get. For odds on all these different pairings, try the genetic calculator at https://www.omnicalculator.com/biology/rabbit-color or one of the other rabbit breeding calculators available online.
If both parents carry a recessive non-agouti 'a' gene, you could end up with self colored kits, although the odds are you're going to get agouti since it is dominant and both parents carry at least one copy. You won't get any black based colors, since both parents are chocolate. If the chocolate agouti carries one of the four recessives to full color (chinchilla, sable, Himalayan or albino), you might end up with more magpies, chins, or something even more recessive, depending on what the two parents have as their other gene in this location. If they both carry a recessive dilute, you could end up with a lilac. On the E extension gene, normal extension (the dark colors extend down the agouti hairshaft in the normal pattern) is dominant over harlequin, which is dominant over non-extension (which is the recessive gene needed for red/orange/fawn/cream/tort/frosty/pearl). Again, depending on recessives, you could end up with normal agouti, chinchilla, red/orange/fawn, tort, etc.
Broken chocolate is recessive non-agouti aa, recessive brown bb, full color C_, dense color D_, normal extension E_, plus the broken gene En_. Usually, brokens are En en to be proper pattern, and throw about 50% brokens in the litter (although Lady Luck is really in charge and it could be all or none.) Double dominant En En is called a 'Charlie", and is mostly all white with only 10% or less color. Recessive en en is a normal non-broken rabbit. A rabbit cannot carry broken, even if it has brokens in the pedigree, since broken is dominant, and non-broken is a double recessive. To see what the cross with broken chocolate could be, just go through each gene, A, B, C, D, E plus broken En, and see what each gene cross could be. Dominant genes are capitalized (like agouti A, black B, full color C, dense color D (as opposed to dilute color dd), and full-extension E. Recessive genes are in lower case letters, like aa non-agouti self, bb chocolate, cc albino, dd dilute or ee non-extension red/fawn/orange/tort.
Chocolate frosty/frostie/ermine is an agouti A_, chocolate bb, chinchilla c(chd)_, dense color D_, and non-extension ee. The non-extension gene makes the main body color orange, and then chinchilla removes all the orange tones, leaving a mostly pearl white coat, sometimes with the chocolate agouti tips still showing. Since non-extension is recessive to harlequin, crossing to a magpie should give harlequin or non-extension kits, depending on the magpie's second gene (harlequin or non-agouti).
Chocolate harlequin is usually agouti A (but could be self if also double harlequin e(j) e(j)), chocolate bb, full color C_, dense color D_, harlequin e(j)_. Crossing to a magpie would give you likely A, chocolate bb, could be full color or chin or some other recessive, probably dense color (chocolate and not lilac dilute), and harlequin. So the kits would likely be either normal chocolate harlequin or magpie if the harlie parent also carries chin or another recessive on the C color gene.
It's really just a guessing game, Lady Luck never follows the rules. Odds are half the litter will be male and half female, but I often get all-male or all-female litters. Same deal with the colors. The calculators will tell you what the odds are, but each litter is unique.
Back with another question!
So I breed holland lops. They are pedigreed. I want to breed a son and a mom. I’ve heard this is ok. Will this create problems for futur babys or on the pedigree?
Also what would a black tort and a sable point produce?
So I breed holland lops. They are pedigreed. I want to breed a son and a mom. I’ve heard this is ok. Will this create problems for futur babys or on the pedigree?
Also what would a black tort and a sable point produce?
Breeding a son to mother is like breeding the father to the daughter, it is line breeding and used to set traits. I use it every so often in my own breeding to set my more desirable traits. Don't do it too often as it will also set the undesirable traits and can cause issues further down the line.
As far as color questions go, I have to bow to those with greater knowledge then I have. I am working on learning it again but alas, I am still a newbie in the wings.
As far as color questions go, I have to bow to those with greater knowledge then I have. I am working on learning it again but alas, I am still a newbie in the wings.
As a rule, that pairing is fine. It's known as line-breeding.
The main problem that might occur would be if both of the rabbits carried some unwanted recessive allele(s), and those doubled up in one or more of the kits; or if both rabbits had an undesirable trait - weak ankles, for example - it would more likely be passed to the kits. This can happen with any pairing, but it becomes more likely that you'll double up on detrimental alleles and traits when the animals are relatives and presumably have more alleles and traits in common than non-relatives.
As far as the pedigrees, most rabbit breeders understand line-breeding, and would not object unless there were very many generations of very close breeding. Non-breeders sometimes have a knee-jerk reaction against breeding parent x offspring, or sibling x sibling, but most are able to understand if the situation is explained.
Both of them are non-extension self <ee> colors, so all of their kits will be non-extension self colors as well. My daughter also has Holland Lops, a broken tort buck and a sable point doe, and they always produce more torts and sable points, some solid and some broken.
If the tort carries chinchilla <c(chd)>, you might see non-extension self chinchillas, which are known as sallandars. (Correction... thanks @MsTemeraire!)
If one or both of your rabbits carry himalayan <c(h)> or if they both carry REW <c>, you might get one of those as well.
Line-breeding does not necessarily set undesirable traits; you can instead work to reduce or eliminate them. One of the great things about line-breeding is that it uncovers those unwanted traits so you know that they're there and which rabbits carry them. It's painful in the short run, as you're finding those traits, but in the long run it can produce a really robust line of rabbits. You just have to be watchful, and remove carriers from the breeding lineup without hesitation.
The main thing people caution about inbreeding for "too long" is what's called inbreeding depression. Inbreeding depression is a term for a theoretical decline in fitness in a population resulting from the increased expression of harmful recessive genes. But it's pretty unlikely to be a problem in a hobby rabbitry.
One study showed it's possible to breed even siblings together for at least 20 generations without seeing problems you might identify as inbreeding depression. The original article is in Japanese, but you can read the abstract and see the breeding performance data chart here:
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/expanim1978/35/2/35_2_203/_pdf/-char/en
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MsTemeraire
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As both are self based ee you would get Sallander in this case, as ermines are agouti. But I'm sure you knew this
Looks like a vienna marked Sallander to me.
He looks like a vienna-marked (VM) sable point to me. That's a self non-extension sable carrying vienna <aaB_c(chl)_D_ee>.
VM means the rabbit carries one copy of the partially dominant vienna allele <v>. When a rabbit gets two copies <vv> it is a Blue-Eyed White (BEW). So if you could find a BEW or VM doe, you should get some BEW kits. Otherwise, about half his kits will inherit his single vienna allele, meaning they'll also be VM, or VC (vienna carrier). VC rabbits don't have any marks to indicate they carry <v>, but they can still pass on a single allele, so some of their offspring may be VM, which is a show disqualification. So it's important to note on pedigrees that your buck is VM.
Since he's a self and a sable, finding another self would be ideal if you're looking to produce showable colors. Breeding him to an agouti or an otter would most likely eventually result in sable chins or foxes (torted otters), neither of which are currently recognized varieties in Hollands, if that matters to you. Breeding to a pointed white (which is a self) could give you sables, plus possibly more pointed whites or REWs, depending on what he carries in the second place at the C locus.
@Sagebrush suggests sallander, which is a non-extension self chinchilla <aaB_c(chd)_D_ee>, instead of sable point, which is a non-extension sable. The difference is that sallander has chin at the C locus, while sable point has sable at the C locus; both are non-extension. The two varieties can look quite similar, but your bunny looks distinctly pointed, so my first inclination would be the sable point, though I would not rule out sallander. Do you have a pedigree, or know what varieties his parents were?
VM means the rabbit carries one copy of the partially dominant vienna allele <v>. When a rabbit gets two copies <vv> it is a Blue-Eyed White (BEW). So if you could find a BEW or VM doe, you should get some BEW kits. Otherwise, about half his kits will inherit his single vienna allele, meaning they'll also be VM, or VC (vienna carrier). VC rabbits don't have any marks to indicate they carry <v>, but they can still pass on a single allele, so some of their offspring may be VM, which is a show disqualification. So it's important to note on pedigrees that your buck is VM.
Since he's a self and a sable, finding another self would be ideal if you're looking to produce showable colors. Breeding him to an agouti or an otter would most likely eventually result in sable chins or foxes (torted otters), neither of which are currently recognized varieties in Hollands, if that matters to you. Breeding to a pointed white (which is a self) could give you sables, plus possibly more pointed whites or REWs, depending on what he carries in the second place at the C locus.
@Sagebrush suggests sallander, which is a non-extension self chinchilla <aaB_c(chd)_D_ee>, instead of sable point, which is a non-extension sable. The difference is that sallander has chin at the C locus, while sable point has sable at the C locus; both are non-extension. The two varieties can look quite similar, but your bunny looks distinctly pointed, so my first inclination would be the sable point, though I would not rule out sallander. Do you have a pedigree, or know what varieties his parents were?
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At six months old, Hollands are considered seniors, so you should have the type and weight you want by then. In our experience, good Holland Lops just get better as they age. The best ones are already built like little tanks by weaning age, or even earlier, but most well-bred Hollands' bodies, heads and crowns thicken as they mature, so those are traits that can improve with time.
If I was buying one at that middle "ugly" stage, I'd be looking for relative shortness of bone, however the muscle mass is something that can develop as the rabbit ages. Assess the set of the crown: proper placement of the crown will let the ears hang directly behind the eyes, while a slipped crown will leave a lot of room between the eyes and the ears. Those things won't likely change a whole lot. Similarly, ears with a tendency to fold, frequently have a lack of substance, which also seems to be a permanent feature, at least in the Hollands we've raised and shown. Sometimes their ears will look a bit longer than you'd want at that intermediate stage, but particularly long ears and/or body (they tend to go together) can indicate a possible false dwarf, which will usually end up too big to show but could make a nice brood doe if she's got other things going for her.
I'd pay attention especially to whether or not the rabbit is pinched or narrow in the hindquarters, and that's true for all breeds. Those things are very unlikely to change, and not only diminish show quality but can also cause problems with kindling, especially in a breed with a large, broad head like the Holland Lop.
A Holland that poses naturally is usually built correctly, so that's a good sign, though it's not necessarily a deal-breaker, as some can be pills about posing at certain ages. And if you can view the parents and/or older siblings, that's often a big help in deciding whether a rabbit will come out of the "uglies" as a pretty.
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I would be willing to believe that's a sable magpie, but a single photo taken in the shade viewed on a computer screen does temper my confidence.
So, I wouldn't rule out blue. But the very pale color on her face and back, compared with darker color on her ears and hindquarters suggests sable, which is a shaded variety. Observing VM on a magpie coat is tricky, but her blue eye makes calling her VM sound accurate.A "regular" magpie is a harlequin with a dominant chinchilla allele <c(chd)> that prevents expression of most or all yellow pigment, so the orange areas of a harlequin become the white areas on a magpie. A sable magpie is a harlequin rabbit with a dominant sable allele <c(chl)> at the C locus which, like the chinchilla allele, blocks yellow pigment, leaving white instead of orange; but it also turns black into shades of sepia, generally darker on shorter hairs and paler on longer hairs.
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RabbitsOfTheCreek
Netherland Dwarf Breeder & Well-known Member
It's best to wait until at least 6 weeks
I agree with @RabbitsOfTheCreek that at least 6 weeks is a good idea; in fact I generally wait till 8 weeks. Even if the doe is not feeding them anymore, 4 weeks is pretty young to make big changes, and I'd be a little wary of prompting a bout of weaning enteritis.
MsTemeraire
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I would wean at 8 weeks by taking the mother away, and then let them settle for a while. Here in the UK, British Rabbit Council members are advised not to let them go to new homes until 10 weeks. This is to give them the maximum chance of best health since their immune systems are still developing (maternal antibodies may not subside until 10 weeks) and also to minimise stress.
