Overdue Doe

The is the first litter for my son's show doe. My sister has run a rabbitry for a few years and we used her buck. She recommended doing a daily breeding once a day, 5 days in a row. We got a fall off on the first day, December 15th. She said there were 3 total fall offs from the 15th to the 19th, but she doesn't remember the 2 after the 15th. I know the doe is definitely pregnant as I was able to feel several kicks 3 days ago. She is now anywhere from day 34 to 38 and shows no signs of kindling soon. She hasn't built a nest even though the nest box has been in for over a week. She also continues to poop and pee in the nest box daily. My sister says this is all normal and she will kindle when she is ready. I'm just growing concerned as I want to make sure nothing bad happens to her if it can be avoided. Is this really normal? If it's normal, should I continue cleaning the nest box when she's dirtied it until she actually kindle?

twhite0908 said:

The is the first litter for my son's show doe. My sister has run a rabbitry for a few years and we used her buck. She recommended doing a daily breeding once a day, 5 days in a row. We got a fall off on the first day, December 15th. She said there were 3 total fall offs from the 15th to the 19th, but she doesn't remember the 2 after the 15th. I know the doe is definitely pregnant as I was able to feel several kicks 3 days ago. She is now anywhere from day 34 to 38 and shows no signs of kindling soon. She hasn't built a nest even though the nest box has been in for over a week. She also continues to poop and pee in the nest box daily. My sister says this is all normal and she will kindle when she is ready. I'm just growing concerned as I want to make sure nothing bad happens to her if it can be avoided. Is this really normal? If it's normal, should I continue cleaning the nest box when she's dirtied it until she actually kindle?

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Your sister's right - if the doe's pregnant, she'll have the babies when she's ready. If she's acting healthy and normal, I'd just give her time, especially since you don't really know exactly when she was bred. I've had does go to 35 days and still deliver healthy kits.

Some does don't build a nest or pull fur till they're actually having the babies, so I wouldn't worry too much about that either. But pooping and peeing in the box aren't exactly normal. I've had it happen when I put the nest box in too early. (On the other hand, some does can have a box in their cage all the time, and just ignore it till they're ready to nest.)

I would go to some lengths to get her to quit using the box as a litter box. You might consider giving her another box in addition to the one she's soiling, to encourage her to build a clean nest in the new box. I don't know how her cage is laid out, but maybe the original nest box got put where she normally goes to the bathroom...? Sometimes it's a simple as moving it to a different part of the cage. It now smells like a litter box, though, so if you can come up with another box, adding that would be my first inclination. Even if the boxes nearly fill the cage, it's only temporary. When the bunnies are born (hopefully in the nest box) you can pull the soiled box.

The other advantage to having the cage crowded with nest boxes is that it leaves her less room to have the bunnies on the wire. As a first-time mother, she may not get with the program immediately; I've even seen first-time does build a nest and then have the babies on the wire. In the past I've also had does that didn't want any of the boxes I offered them. I literally filled the cage with boxes so they didn't have a choice. Once they had the bunnies I just pulled the unoccupied ones out. Again, you know she's close to kindling, so it'll only be temporary.

Incidentally, even if she continues to soil the box after the bunnies are born, you should be able to pull the bunnies out while you clean the box. In fact, I find that daily handling of the kits results in very calm bunnies, and allows you to find and remove any that die. If the doe seems nervous, or even if she doesn't, you can put some kind of treat (black oil sunflower seeds or oats are good and will give her extra fat to make milk) in a little bowl, and while she's busy eating them, pull the box and do your check and/or cleaning. After a few days she'll most likely be happy to see you come for a nest check!

Rabbits seem to like to pee and poop in the same location. Move the box away from that location and she will probably quit using it as a litter box. Also, switching it for a new box will keep it from smelling like 'the place' as well.

I wouldn't recommend breeding 5 days in a row. I breed in the morning and then again in the evening. I did that once and it was a mess figuring out when she was due. I would just wait it out and see if she is pregnant she should give birth any day. Also palpating is a great method to figure out if she is pregnant. You would definitely be able to feel the babies if she is pregnant since she is so far along.

Her Farmstead Rabbitry said:

I wouldn't recommend breeding 5 days in a row. I breed in the morning and then again in the evening. I did that once and it was a mess figuring out when she was due. I would just wait it out and see if she is pregnant she should give birth any day. Also palpating is a great method to figure out if she is pregnant. You would definitely be able to feel the babies if she is pregnant since she is so far along.

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I felt a few kicks when I felt her 3 days ago but I haven't felt a kick since. I try to not mess with her much because she is very agitated by me touching her stomach.

twhite0908 said:

I felt a few kicks when I felt her 3 days ago but I haven't felt a kick since. I try to not mess with her much because she is very agitated by me touching her stomach.

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I have never tried to feel for kicks. You can try to cover her eyes and squeeze around to feel babies.

twhite0908 said:

I felt a few kicks when I felt her 3 days ago but I haven't felt a kick since. I try to not mess with her much because she is very agitated by me touching her stomach.

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Her Farmstead Rabbitry said:

I have never tried to feel for kicks. You can try to cover her eyes and squeeze around to feel babies.

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When a rabbit is very close to her due date, sometimes you can see the babies kick when she's laying on her side. You can also just gently put your hand against her side and wait to see if you feel kicks (I wouldn't squeeze - at this stage it isn't necessary and it'll annoy the rabbit).

The thing about kicks is that until you've seen/felt them, you can mistake the movement of the rabbit's gut for the movements of kits. The big difference, to my eye and hand, is that gut movements are a rolling, rhythmic type of action, while kicks are abrupt and much more distinct/forceful. So, if you're new to this, what you felt three days ago might have been gut movements.

The caveat is that first-time does can be very cryptic in their pregnancies (kind of like with my first pregnancy, no one knew I was pregnant - not so much in later pregnancies! ). I've been fooled a number of times by tightly toned first-time does. So my suggestion would be to wait 40 days after the last day she was in with the buck, then call it a miss and try to rebreed her.

Palpating for embryos is generally done between 10-14 days. I've not had much luck with it, but I'll admit I haven't tried very hard to learn how to do it. My rabbits tend to be reliably pregnant when they're bred, so I haven't taken the time.

By the way, I agree with @Her Farmstead Rabbitry about the 5-day breeding practice. It's not really necessary and it does make predicting a kindling date much harder. Everyone has different approaches, but an old ARBA judge told me about a study (which, frustratingly, we haven't been able to find in print) in which the highest conception rates and litter sizes resulted from breeding the rabbits initially, waiting an hour, and rebreeding them. No other time interval was as effective. I have found this approach to be very reliable (and like I've mentioned elsewhere, my does usually have 10-16 kits per litter in their first year!).

Honestly, though, a single fall-off by a fertile buck with a healthy, willing doe will do the trick!

Alaska Satin said:

When a rabbit is very close to her due date, sometimes you can see the babies kick when she's laying on her side. You can also just gently put your hand against her side and wait to see if you feel kicks (I wouldn't squeeze - at this stage it isn't necessary and it'll annoy the rabbit).

The thing about kicks is that until you've seen/felt them, you can mistake the movement of the rabbit's gut for the movements of kits. The big difference, to my eye and hand, is that gut movements are a rolling, rhythmic type of action, while kicks are abrupt and much more distinct/forceful. So, if you're new to this, what you felt three days ago might have been gut movements.

The caveat is that first-time does can be very cryptic in their pregnancies (kind of like with my first pregnancy, no one knew I was pregnant - not so much in later pregnancies! ). I've been fooled a number of times by tightly toned first-time does. So my suggestion would be to wait 40 days after the last day she was in with the buck, then call it a miss and try to rebreed her.

Palpating for embryos is generally done between 10-14 days. I've not had much luck with it, but I'll admit I haven't tried very hard to learn how to do it. My rabbits tend to be reliably pregnant when they're bred, so I haven't taken the time.

By the way, I agree with @Her Farmstead Rabbitry about the 5-day breeding practice. It's not really necessary and it does make predicting a kindling date much harder. Everyone has different approaches, but an old ARBA judge told me about a study (which, frustratingly, we haven't been able to find in print) in which the highest conception rates and litter sizes resulted from breeding the rabbits initially, waiting an hour, and rebreeding them. No other time interval was as effective. I have found this approach to be very reliable (and like I've mentioned elsewhere, my does usually have 10-16 kits per litter in their first year!).

Honestly, though, a single fall-off by a fertile buck with a healthy, willing doe will do the trick!

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Thank you!