Single Kit Survival Rate? And other ?'s

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MelC

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Location
South Dakota
First time breeder, feel free to critique!

Bred two of my first time does on Feb 9th and a veteran doe on Feb 10th (mostly because she was having none of being handled the day before.)

On Sunday the 12th sometime midday my largest fresh doe kindled a litter of 8! She has done a great job so far, no losses as of this morning and all babies appear to be growing evenly. Very happy because she has a beautiful temperament and I'd like to replace my hateful doe with her. The only issue is she built the nest outside of the provided box. So I've reinforced the corner she used with smaller wire to keep kits from wiggling out.

The veteran doe has successfully kindled and raised kits for four litters before, including adopting two from her sister. Yesterday morning there was no sign of nesting(day 33 for her) but she kindled at some point. I was in town so did not check on animals until evening after morning feeding. Three dead kits outside of nest, one partially gone, one a bit bloody and one that looked fine. It was cold so I tried warming that one with no luck. There is a single live kit in her nest. I cleaned up the rest and left the single kit and checked on momma a couple times later and found no others as of morning. Momma was in nest nursing when I checked on kit during feeding, so that was good.

2nd younger doe made a nest and pulled hair same day as sister. In the morning when I found her sister had kindled I did find a bit of blood in her water dish and thought she was in labor so I just removed it without much thought. Now she has still not kindled and its her day 35. I'm wondering if she gave birth and ate the kits? She is the most nervous of my younger ones. One personality quirk about her is she hates anything in her space, any hay/straw is usually pushed out of the cage asap. Others move it around, munch on it slowly through the day.

Okay, hopefully that is enough information to answer my questions. Any advice/experience appreciated.

I'm worried about the single kit. It's still getting well below freezing here. Is one kit capable of staying warm in the nest? I have the new momma but she already has eight little ones who would be almost four days ahead. Could a newborn have a chance in a bunch like that? I feel bad taking her only surviving kit as well. She was a good momma before and seems to be caring for it so far.

I have average size rabbit cages and the nest boxes seem huge. Anyone have a favorite plans to diy? I'm pretty handy. The wire ones I used obviously weren't well liked.
 
MelC said:
First time breeder, feel free to critique!

Bred two of my first time does on Feb 9th and a veteran doe on Feb 10th (mostly because she was having none of being handled the day before.)

On Sunday the 12th sometime midday my largest fresh doe kindled a litter of 8! She has done a great job so far, no losses as of this morning and all babies appear to be growing evenly. Very happy because she has a beautiful temperament and I'd like to replace my hateful doe with her. The only issue is she built the nest outside of the provided box. So I've reinforced the corner she used with smaller wire to keep kits from wiggling out.

The veteran doe has successfully kindled and raised kits for four litters before, including adopting two from her sister. Yesterday morning there was no sign of nesting(day 33 for her) but she kindled at some point. I was in town so did not check on animals until evening after morning feeding. Three dead kits outside of nest, one partially gone, one a bit bloody and one that looked fine. It was cold so I tried warming that one with no luck. There is a single live kit in her nest. I cleaned up the rest and left the single kit and checked on momma a couple times later and found no others as of morning. Momma was in nest nursing when I checked on kit during feeding, so that was good.

2nd younger doe made a nest and pulled hair same day as sister. In the morning when I found her sister had kindled I did find a bit of blood in her water dish and thought she was in labor so I just removed it without much thought. Now she has still not kindled and its her day 35. I'm wondering if she gave birth and ate the kits? She is the most nervous of my younger ones. One personality quirk about her is she hates anything in her space, any hay/straw is usually pushed out of the cage asap. Others move it around, munch on it slowly through the day.

Okay, hopefully that is enough information to answer my questions. Any advice/experience appreciated.

I'm worried about the single kit. It's still getting well below freezing here. Is one kit capable of staying warm in the nest? I have the new momma but she already has eight little ones who would be almost four days ahead. Could a newborn have a chance in a bunch like that? I feel bad taking her only surviving kit as well. She was a good momma before and seems to be caring for it so far.

I have average size rabbit cages and the nest boxes seem huge. Anyone have a favorite plans to diy? I'm pretty handy. The wire ones I used obviously weren't well liked.
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Yes, you're right to be worried about a single kit if it's cold at night; they can't usually keep warm enough by themself. I always try to keep at least three kits in a nest, which is why I often do what you did, and breed an older doe at the same time as a new doe. My rabbits tend to have huge (12-16) litters in their first year, and an older doe's smaller litter is a great foster home for the "overflow."

If your older doe is actually doing a good job, I'd pull two of the smallest from the litter of eight and add them to the nest with the single one. Leaving 6 is plenty for the young doe, and all of the kits will probably grow even better with less competition. With only three in the older doe's nest, the competition wouldn't be so bad and the youngest should be able to nurse among only two others.

Since your older doe obviously had some problem, I'd go carefully about fostering. I usually just plop kits in the new nest with no trouble. The does generally go in once, or sometimes twice a day to nurse and they generally don't have any issues with new bunnies. But with a nervous doe, I'd pull the nest box out in the morning (after she feeds the bunnies, if you know when that is), put the new bunny/bunnies into it, and leave it on a shelf for the rest of the day, so that all the kits smell the same. Then I'd put the box in again in the late afternoon in case the doe feeds them again at night.

By the way, if you're concerned about the bunnies born in the corner, you can probably move the young doe's litter into a nest box now. Even if she didn't want to build a nest in it, she'll probably go into it to feed the bunnies. I've never had a problem doing that. On the other hand, if it seems to be working, my motto is, "If it works, don't fix it!" :)

I'll look around for nest box plans but it's been so many years I'm not sure we have any on paper any more. The ones that seem to work the best are just big enough for the doe to get in and turn around. Too big and the doe will often end up sitting in it and using it as a potty. I also like wooden boxes best, partly because we build our own, and partly because metal is so cold. There are quite a few different designs and they all work; I like to keep numerous ones because the does can be picky and prefer one over another.
 
Alaska Satin said:
Yes, you're right to be worried about a single kit if it's cold at night; they can't usually keep warm enough by themself. I always try to keep at least three kits in a nest, which is why I often do what you did, and breed an older doe at the same time as a new doe. My rabbits tend to have huge (12-16) litters in their first year, and an older doe's smaller litter is a great foster home for the "overflow."

If your older doe is actually doing a good job, I'd pull two of the smallest from the litter of eight and add them to the nest with the single one. Leaving 6 is plenty for the young doe, and all of the kits will probably grow even better with less competition. With only three in the older doe's nest, the competition wouldn't be so bad and the youngest should be able to nurse among only two others.

Since your older doe obviously had some problem, I'd go carefully about fostering. I usually just plop kits in the new nest with no trouble. The does generally go in once, or sometimes twice a day to nurse and they generally don't have any issues with new bunnies. But with a nervous doe, I'd pull the nest box out in the morning (after she feeds the bunnies, if you know when that is), put the new bunny/bunnies into it, and leave it on a shelf for the rest of the day, so that all the kits smell the same. Then I'd put the box in again in the late afternoon in case the doe feeds them again at night.

By the way, if you're concerned about the bunnies born in the corner, you can probably move the young doe's litter into a nest box now. Even if she didn't want to build a nest in it, she'll probably go into it to feed the bunnies. I've never had a problem doing that. On the other hand, if it seems to be working, my motto is, "If it works, don't fix it!" :)

I'll look around for nest box plans but it's been so many years I'm not sure we have any on paper any more. The ones that seem to work the best are just big enough for the doe to get in and turn around. Too big and the doe will often end up sitting in it and using it as a potty. I also like wooden boxes best, partly because we build our own, and partly because metal is so cold. There are quite a few different designs and they all work; I like to keep numerous ones because the does can be picky and prefer one over another.
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Thank you for the response. I just went to check for the third time today and found the lone kit too cold. The other times I went in the momma was on the nest so I hoped she was keeping it warm enough. May have been her just hopping over defensively when I enter, I can't see her right away.

So upon your recommedation I took two kits (they all seem to be about the same size) from the other doe, actively warmed the younger kit and they are now all shelved in her fur, so hopefully the smell transfers. My daughter and dog are in love. I'll take them out this evening to feed. Is it obvious they've eaten, like if I check bellies before and after? How long do I continue shelving?

Using the nest box for a potty is exactly what they did. I went with wire because it gets hot here, thought it might be better air flow in warmer months and I had it on hand. But I also plan to try avoiding breeding then so....idk. The next ones will be wood.
 
MelC said:
Thank you for the response. I just went to check for the third time today and found the lone kit too cold. The other times I went in the momma was on the nest so I hoped she was keeping it warm enough. May have been her just hopping over defensively when I enter, I can't see her right away.

So upon your recommedation I took two kits (they all seem to be about the same size) from the other doe, actively warmed the younger kit and they are now all shelved in her fur, so hopefully the smell transfers. My daughter and dog are in love. I'll take them out this evening to feed. Is it obvious they've eaten, like if I check bellies before and after? How long do I continue shelving?

Using the nest box for a potty is exactly what they did. I went with wire because it gets hot here, thought it might be better air flow in warmer months and I had it on hand. But I also plan to try avoiding breeding then so....idk. The next ones will be wood.
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There are individual variations and always exceptions to the "rules," but in my experience mother rabbits don't usually brood the kits. In fact if they are in the nest other than for feeding, they tend to disrupt things and the kits get uncovered and cold.

Yes, it should be pretty obvious when they've just eaten - like you say, check for full round bellies. She may only feed them in the morning, or she may only feed them in the evening, or she may do both; each doe has her own habits. Skipping one meal isn't the end of the world, so if the kits miss one, they'll catch up on the next.

As far as shelving, once you know she's feeding them, you can just leave them, since three should be enough to keep each other warm. However... any time I have any doubts about a doe or her litter, I bring the box in until the kits are able to hop in and out of the boxes by themselves (usually about 16-18 days old). I take the box out in the morning and bring it in at night. That seems to prevent tragic accidents, like the kits getting scattered because the doe is sitting in the box, or one popping out looking for a feeding before it's feeding time.

In fact, if the doe is really bad about sitting in the box, I keep them inside all day and night, except for taking them out in the morning and the evening long enough for the doe to feed them (and if she's ready, she'll be only too happy to hop in and get some relief!). It's more work for a couple of weeks, but I really hate finding bunnycicles on the wire. :( Plus, when they're inside, the kits get a lot of attention, so they end up very tame and friendly.
 
After shelving for two days the momma seemed to be doing well so I left them with her overnight. Then we had a temp drop to single digits from 30s early the next morning.
It was a dumb, newbie mistake. Now all three are gone, appears momma didn't cover the nest back up.

On a positive note the other kits with new momma are doing great. She is fantastic and definitely will be my main doe.
 
MelC said:
After shelving for two days the momma seemed to be doing well so I left them with her overnight. Then we had a temp drop to single digits from 30s early the next morning.
It was a dumb, newbie mistake. Now all three are gone, appears momma didn't cover the nest back up.

On a positive note the other kits with new momma are doing great. She is fantastic and definitely will be my main doe.
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So sorry to hear that. Something else might have been going on, though. The mother doesn't really need to cover the kits after she feeds them; the scratching and digging and wiggling of the kits themselves should do that without her help, especially after the first day or so. If the mother is actively uncovering the kits, that's another thing, but that usually ends up in the kits scattered all over the nest box.

Before you feel too bad about "newbie"mistakes, understand that this kind of thing happens to most of us off and on, including old-timers that just lost two Holland kits, plus a foster Satin added for nest warmth, in a similar scenario to yours (that would be me). It is especially crushing when you've added fosters that otherwise might have made it. :(

In the case of the Hollands mentioned above, after shelving for three days, we left the box with the doe. It's still really cold here, but if the doe does her job that's not an issue. Two days later I found the Satin kit (extremely well-fed, judging by its belly) outside the box, frozen on the wire. The two Hollands were still in the nest box, but not covered, and the smaller one looked like it had been dead longer than the other. My suspicion is that the smaller one died and chilled the nest, and the Satin kit either popped out to get away from it, or got pulled out trying to hang onto the doe while nursing. I'm guessing the lone live Holland wasn't able to maintain its body temperature by itself, especially with a cold kit in the box with it. I am still kicking myself for not continuing to bring them inside, even though I know it should not be necessary.

Honestly, once in a while you get litters that just seem destined to fail, no matter how much triage you do. Over the years it has seemed to me that the somehow the does know this - not just the mother but also the foster doe(s) - before we do. It's almost like the does and kits agree to throw in the towel. Unfortunately, I have yet to be able to predict when it's going to happen, although in retrospect there are clues. And what I'm talking about is a one-off thing - a doe that has a litter that fails like that, no matter what you do - is not necessarily going to fail again; usually I find it happens kind of midway in the doe's breeding career.

It would be worthwhile to really check your older doe over to make sure she's healthy herself - proper weight and good body condition, not too fat or skinny, good teeth, no fur/ear mites or vent disease, etc., any of which could make her feel like she didn't have the resources to raise a litter. But again, as long as she didn't uncover and scatter the litter, it's not really her job to keep the kits covered; they should do that themselves.

I'm so sorry, but glad to hear your other doe is doing a good job.
 
Alaska Satin said:
So sorry to hear that. Something else might have been going on, though. The mother doesn't really need to cover the kits after she feeds them; the scratching and digging and wiggling of the kits themselves should do that without her help, especially after the first day or so. If the mother is actively uncovering the kits, that's another thing, but that usually ends up in the kits scattered all over the nest box.

Before you feel too bad about "newbie"mistakes, understand that this kind of thing happens to most of us off and on, including old-timers that just lost two Holland kits, plus a foster Satin added for nest warmth, in a similar scenario to yours (that would be me). It is especially crushing when you've added fosters that otherwise might have made it. :(

In the case of the Hollands mentioned above, after shelving for three days, we left the box with the doe. It's still really cold here, but if the doe does her job that's not an issue. Two days later I found the Satin kit (extremely well-fed, judging by its belly) outside the box, frozen on the wire. The two Hollands were still in the nest box, but not covered, and the smaller one looked like it had been dead longer than the other. My suspicion is that the smaller one died and chilled the nest, and the Satin kit either popped out to get away from it, or got pulled out trying to hang onto the doe while nursing. I'm guessing the lone live Holland wasn't able to maintain its body temperature by itself, especially with a cold kit in the box with it. I am still kicking myself for not continuing to bring them inside, even though I know it should not be necessary.

Honestly, once in a while you get litters that just seem destined to fail, no matter how much triage you do. Over the years it has seemed to me that the somehow the does know this - not just the mother but also the foster doe(s) - before we do. It's almost like the does and kits agree to throw in the towel. Unfortunately, I have yet to be able to predict when it's going to happen, although in retrospect there are clues. And what I'm talking about is a one-off thing - a doe that has a litter that fails like that, no matter what you do - is not necessarily going to fail again; usually I find it happens kind of midway in the doe's breeding career.

It would be worthwhile to really check your older doe over to make sure she's healthy herself - proper weight and good body condition, not too fat or skinny, good teeth, no fur/ear mites or vent disease, etc., any of which could make her feel like she didn't have the resources to raise a litter. But again, as long as she didn't uncover and scatter the litter, it's not really her job to keep the kits covered; they should do that themselves.

I'm so sorry, but glad to hear your other doe is doing a good job.
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Thank you for the words of wisdom. I've been around animals enough to know that with livestock comes dead stock. And I've always done my best learning thru failure. Just more of a bummer with tiny lives at stake. I don't necessarily think it was her failure to recover as much as I thought there was enough in the box I supplied and maybe there wasn't. The temp drop from being indoors would have been extreme. The live kits were deep in fur that morning.

As far as the old momma, you may be spot on. She's around 2.5 years and has kindled numerous litters with success, including adopting others. May be her mid-life crisis. ALSO and probably more important is that she hates life here...she has never warmed up to me or anyone else. While everyone (four others) else comes to me for scratches and treats, and are easily handled, she huddles in her corner as far from me as possible. As my proven doe I gave her the largest cage out of respect. Every time I try to handle her it stresses her out, foot pounding and lunging. She is on the list to be sold or given away soon. I'll make sure to give her a good look over though. Hopefully she can find a place she appreciates more.

The other doe is a very attentive momma, all kits are showing great growth and moving about! They are about to get a much larger space to play :)
 

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