Guess that genotype!

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Dimplz

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Today we present Bandit (1st two pics) and his brother Quicksilver (Last two picks). Full blooded littermates.

Their breeder says their sire is a Silver Fox. The breeder refuses to acknowledge they are any other breed, and can only say "They are Silver Fox who are just expressing the genes used to create the breed."

In her shed of rabbits she had a big black buck with scattered silvering hairs. She had two chinchilla colored does, whom she claimed were here Silver Fox breeding does. She had Californians in her barn as well.

Guess the genotypes of these bucks based on their phenotype and the information provided.

This is so exciting. I love genetics.
 

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Not everyone keeps pedigrees. Pedigrees are only as honest as the breeder. I have been in the dog world 30 years & it is amazing how many "hung" papers are on dogs. I am sure the rabbit world is no different.
 
Going with phenotype first, Bandit looks like a chinchilla - the rings in the fur are kind of a giveaway, as is the black lacing on the ears. (Though the darker fur on his nose, which almost looks like shading, is a little strange for a chin.) Quicksilver isn't chinchilla - no rings at all - but from the photo it looks more like a blue silver-tipped steel than silver fox. It seems that there are silver tips on blue hairs, rather than white hairs scattered among blue hairs. In fact if is it is slivering, there is so much it would be more in the realm of the silvering you'd see in a Champagne d'Argent - but he really doesn't look like a champagne, no nose butterfly etc. Photos of the bellies would be helpful. (I'm guessing a pale belly on Bandit, with Quicksilver's belly being basically the same color as his back...?)
The breeder's buck could have been a poor silver fox, or just a black with scattered white hairs...my guess, though, is that he's got a steel gene -maybe even two copies - which would explain both his having the appearance of a black with scattered white hairs (or are they white-tipped hairs?), and his producing a blue STS son. It could also explain the strangeness of the coloration on Bandit's face, assuming that isn't just a photo artifact.
As for genotypes, if Bandit's a chin, he would be <A_ B_ Cchd_ D_ E_>. If Quicksilver is a blue silver-tipped steel, he'd probably be <A_ B_ C_ dd Es_>.
Incidentally, neither of your bucks looks like they have anything resembling the very unique coat of a silver fox. Of course I only have two photos to go on, but each of them looks like he has a commercial coat to me.
 
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Question: When you rub your hand slowly up the fur on the rabbits' backs, from the rump towards the head, against the grain of the hair, what does the hair do to go back into place? A true Silver Fox coat should be dense, about 1-1/2" long, and stay standing upright until you use your hand to smooth it back down. American Chinchillas have a roll-back coat, which gently returns to normal hair position on its own, while Californians have a fly-back coat that immediately springs back into position.
 
Going with phenotype first, Bandit looks like a chinchilla - the rings in the fur are kind of a giveaway, as is the black lacing on the ears. (Though the darker fur on his nose, which almost looks like shading, is a little strange for a chin.) Quicksilver isn't chinchilla - no rings at all - but from the photo it looks more like a blue silver-tipped steel than silver fox. It seems that there are silver tips on blue hairs, rather than white hairs scattered among blue hairs. In fact if is it is slivering, there is so much it would be more in the realm of the silvering you'd see in a Champagne d'Argent - but he really doesn't look like a champagne, no nose butterfly etc. Photos of the bellies would be helpful. (I'm guessing a pale belly on Bandit, with Quicksilver's belly being basically the same color as his back...?)
The breeder's buck could have been a poor silver fox, or just a black with scattered white hairs...my guess, though, is that he's got a steel gene -maybe even two copies - which would explain both his having the appearance of a black with scattered white hairs (or are they white-tipped hairs?), and his producing a blue STS son. It could also explain the strangeness of the coloration on Bandit's face, assuming that isn't just a photo artifact.
As for genotypes, if Bandit's a chin, he would be <A_ B_ Cchd_ D_ E_>. If Quicksilver is a blue silver-tipped steel, he'd probably be <A_ B_ C_ dd Es_>.
Incidentally, neither of your bucks looks like they have anything resembling the very unique coat of a silver fox. Of course I only have two photos to go on, but each of them looks like he has a commercial coat to me.
Thank you. Bandit was given his name because he has the dark nose, and sometimes, that dark color shades almost his entire face, while other times it just sticks to the nose. So I am leaning on the shaded gene. He is almost the same color all over, except the underside of his tail and the bottoms of his feet. Those are nearly solid and a slight off-white to white. The topside of his tail looks exactly like Ouicksilver's, and my Chinchilla doe's tail.

Oucksilver was named because he is the same color all over his body. He does have of the shading on his nose too, but it is the almost the same color as the rest of his body. Sometimes it gets a little darker, but not by much. The fact that both my buck have that color change with cooler temps, I am thinking that they have the chinchilla light, or sable gene. To me, that would make sense if they had some Californian in their boodline.

When I pair these guys with my Chinchilla doe, I get only black based rabbits.

Between her and Quicksilver, we got 1 Squirrel, 2 Silver Tipped Steels, and 3 Chinchillas. 5 born black agouti, one born blue agouti. With Bandit we got 1 Silver Tipped Steal, 2 Solid Black, 1 Solid Blue, 1 Agouti Chin, 3 Squirrels.

Oh, according to the breeder, these buck are half siblings to my doe. They share the same sire, if the breeder was honest, that would be the black buck she said was a Silver Fox.

I agree, neither of my bucks have the SF fur type. Both have rather short hair compared to my doe, her hair shaft is twice as long. So far, all the STS produced have the same shorter, softer fur structure as the bucks. All the chins and the black self chins have the long soft fur like my doe. There is one kit that is solid blue, brown eyes, and has a fur type that is almost stiff, but soft, stands up when stroked backwards, and stays up until stroked the other way. Out of 15 kits over two litters, that solid blue one is different.

So I suspect my rabbits are at the very least A_B_Cchd_Dd with my doe and Bandit carrying the self gene. While my doe is EE and my bucks are Es_.

I know they are meat mutts, but I also want to flush out some of the genotypes so I can isolate the steel gene, isolate the dilute gene, and isolate the self gene. They are all so beautiful, I want to produce consistant pelts from each genotype. So knowing what those are will help me understand what I have to do in order to get there.

The colors are all black based with dense and dilute. All the kits, except the solids, are born with obvious agouti dominance. Even the steels, but they darken up fast and always have a spot between the ears that looks different at birth, and goes away as they get the ticking.

You should see my worksheet on this. Science!

Honestly, I feel stupid for trusting the breeder and not getting pedigreed rabbits. However, I am happy with them and have fallen in LOVE with the colors I get.
 

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Not everyone keeps pedigrees. Pedigrees are only as honest as the breeder. I have been in the dog world 30 years & it is amazing how many "hung" papers are on dogs. I am sure the rabbit world is no different.
This breeder falls in to this category. She promised to get me the pedigree and after pestering for months, she then admitted she never uses pedigrees.
 
as to the genotype... it's hard to say, but I'd be thinking am.chin and perhaps silver fox.
The two doe she said were her SF breeding does, looked exactly like American Chinchillas. I am wondering if she meant she was breeding them to her SF buck to get more SFs?

While her choice of words confuses me, I sure do love the colors I get.
 
Question: When you rub your hand slowly up the fur on the rabbits' backs, from the rump towards the head, against the grain of the hair, what does the hair do to go back into place? A true Silver Fox coat should be dense, about 1-1/2" long, and stay standing upright until you use your hand to smooth it back down. American Chinchillas have a roll-back coat, which gently returns to normal hair position on its own, while Californians have a fly-back coat that immediately springs back into position.
Both buck have different fur, like a fly back type on the rear and standing up near the saddle. Both have very short soft fur compared to my Chinchilla doe who has longer fur.
 
Thank you. Bandit was given his name because he has the dark nose, and sometimes, that dark color shades almost his entire face, while other times it just sticks to the nose. So I am leaning on the shaded gene. He is almost the same color all over, except the underside of his tail and the bottoms of his feet. Those are nearly solid and a slight off-white to white. The topside of his tail looks exactly like Ouicksilver's, and my Chinchilla doe's tail.

Oucksilver was named because he is the same color all over his body. He does have of the shading on his nose too, but it is the almost the same color as the rest of his body. Sometimes it gets a little darker, but not by much. The fact that both my buck have that color change with cooler temps, I am thinking that they have the chinchilla light, or sable gene. To me, that would make sense if they had some Californian in their boodline.

When I pair these guys with my Chinchilla doe, I get only black based rabbits.

Between her and Quicksilver, we got 1 Squirrel, 2 Silver Tipped Steels, and 3 Chinchillas. 5 born black agouti, one born blue agouti. With Bandit we got 1 Silver Tipped Steal, 2 Solid Black, 1 Solid Blue, 1 Agouti Chin, 3 Squirrels.

Oh, according to the breeder, these buck are half siblings to my doe. They share the same sire, if the breeder was honest, that would be the black buck she said was a Silver Fox.

I agree, neither of my bucks have the SF fur type. Both have rather short hair compared to my doe, her hair shaft is twice as long. So far, all the STS produced have the same shorter, softer fur structure as the bucks. All the chins and the black self chins have the long soft fur like my doe. There is one kit that is solid blue, brown eyes, and has a fur type that is almost stiff, but soft, stands up when stroked backwards, and stays up until stroked the other way. Out of 15 kits over two litters, that solid blue one is different.

So I suspect my rabbits are at the very least A_B_Cchd_Dd with my doe and Bandit carrying the self gene. While my doe is EE and my bucks are Es_.

I know they are meat mutts, but I also want to flush out some of the genotypes so I can isolate the steel gene, isolate the dilute gene, and isolate the self gene. They are all so beautiful, I want to produce consistant pelts from each genotype. So knowing what those are will help me understand what I have to do in order to get there.

The colors are all black based with dense and dilute. All the kits, except the solids, are born with obvious agouti dominance. Even the steels, but they darken up fast and always have a spot between the ears that looks different at birth, and goes away as they get the ticking.

You should see my worksheet on this. Science!

Honestly, I feel stupid for trusting the breeder and not getting pedigreed rabbits. However, I am happy with them and have fallen in LOVE with the colors I get.
First, I agree with you about those lovely colors - the photo of the bunnies is a mouthwatering monochrome! :)

Is you chinchilla doe a purebred American Chinchilla, or possibly a crossbreed herself?

As far as shading, I don't think you could have gotten a sable from a californian ancestor. The three alleles in the middle of the C-series are distinct from each other, and the only one that is actually shaded is the chin light, better called sable. You probably already know this, but the gene for chinchilla is cchd, the sable is cchl and the californian/himi is <ch>. So, if your bucks came from the californian, they would have a <ch> or a <c>, not a sable <cchl>, since a cal cannot carry the more dominant <cchl>. If they came from a chinchilla, they *might* have cchl since it could hide behind cchd, but that would not be something you could assume. Also, if they were <cchd cchl>, you would probably see some muddying of the chinchilla color since that partially-dominant sable gene tends to really mess up chin color (ask me how I know that, haha!).

If Bandit is nearly self-colored but has lighter undertail and underfoot color, it would make me suspect a chin with an <Es> gene messing with the color. His litter with an STS kit would suggest so too. Looking at the color composition of that litter, I'd agree with your prediction of <AaB_Cchd_DdEs_>. Do consider that that his "self" blacks and blues could very well be self chins or self squirrels.

It's interesting to me that your bucks change color with the temperature on what sounds like a short-term basis. All the cals I've had, have had to wait for a molt for their colors to really darken/lighten. I've never had rabbits that changed color so quickly.

It sounds like you *might* have silver fox somewhere in the mix, given that blue kit's stand-up fur, but it also sounds like the breeder (and maybe her original source as well) are confusing STS with silvering. It's pretty common.

I'm curious about your observation of "longer" and "shorter" hair in your herd. Any chance you could measure it and share? A commercial coat (e.g. Californian) is flyback and doesn't have a specified length other than that the guard hairs should not be more than 1/8" longer than the undercoat, with a shorter denser coat preferred over a longer thinner coat. Ideally, silver fox fur is fairly long at 1-1/2", Am. Chin is rollback and medium length - ideally 1-1/4" long, while Satin fur is fairly short at 1 to 1-1/8" long (Satin fur is not considered either fly back or rollback, it's in its own category). Of course once you start crossbreeding, all bets are off. :)
 
Thank you for your insight. My doe resembles an American Chinchilla, I believe her cross was SF x AmChin. I believ the bucks are aslo possibly the same crosses, except different dams. Same father.

The hair length difference between my bucks and my doe is obvious. My doe has longer fur that expresses 3 or four bands of color with wide bands. Her hair kinda falls back in to place. Her hair is also course, when compared to the soft short almost silky feel of the bucks fur. The bucks fur is super soft, and almost snaps back in to place if it snaos back at all. The fur on parts of their back just stands there. I have pet it down to get it go back down.

My darker buck and my chin doe have produced a litter with 2 solid blacks that have hair like my doe, and a blue who has fur that does not match either parent. They also produced a rabbit that looks like a squirrel blue chinchilla without agouti rings, but much more solid looking with otter markings. The contrast is striking. A gorgeous gray blue color with white otter markings.

I am working on getting better photos.
 
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