What colors could this breeding produce?

What colors could this breeding produce? Any orange or no?


X

ORANGE SIRE
Sire chestnut; Dam black tort
Sires parents are Ruby eyed white and Opal
Dam's parents are both black tort.

Where's the rest of the pedigree?

RabbitsOfTheCreek said:

Where's the rest of the pedigree?

Click to expand...

That doe came straight from the original lines for Mini Plush Lops. She only had two generation as the pedigree got lost.

I am no expert but I’m guessing that there’s a small chance that you could get orange. You’re going to get any number of varieties from this cross.

Wow, that's sure alphabet soup genetically. There could be any number of other possible genetics in the background, but just using what you have. . .(Note: Rabbits get one copy of each gene from each parent, so your kits will have two possible choices for each gene. In the shorthand code for rabbit genetics, a capital letter denotes a dominant trait that can express itself with only one copy, while a lower case letter is used for recessive traits. Some genes have only two choices, where you will need both traits to be the same recessive option to be seen, but, other genes have more options. In the case of those like color C and extension E with five choices each, to have a recessive trait express itself (show up as the color you see, the phenotype), you will need one copy of that recessive gene, and the other one will either be the same option, or something even more recessive down the list.)

I'm going to have to split this answer into two replies, it's too long to post. . .here's part one:
A: agouti dominant; self is recessive The sire is orange, which is dominant agouti with the recessive fawn ee. His albino grandparent could be any color under the albino 'white sheet', as albino rabbits actually have a full complement of color genetics, but the recessive cc albino blocks the pigment from being produced. The opal grandparent is also an agouti, with black 'B-' plus the recessive dilute dd that turns the black into a blue by reducing the amount of pigment produced. The buck's dam is a tort, which is non-agouti recessive aa plus the orange/fawn ee, and black. So, the buck must be Aa, since he is agouti he carries dominant 'A', but his mother could only contribute a recessive non-agouti 'a', which means he can pass along either trait.

Silver marten is a third option on the agouti gene, coded lower case a with a subscript 't' for 'tan', since I can't type it that way here, I'll use a(t). It's halfway between agouti and non-agouti. The original tans have tan-colored inner ears, eye rings, around the nose, and on the belly, but they have none of the multicolor agouti rings on the fur, it's just a solid color fiber. That's how the tans are halfway between agouti and non-agouti, they have agouti markings but not agouti color rings in the fur. We call tan patterned rabbits otters. BUT, the chinchilla gene removes all fawn from the hairshaft, and replaces it with pearl white, which is where the 'silver' part of silver marten comes in. Martens are tan patterned rabbits with chinchilla, so the agouti markings are silvery white instead of tan. Your doe carries the tan gene, probably a(t) a, the buck is Aa, so, using a Punnett square to figure out your chances of offpring on this gene, you get:

The way a Punnett square works, is that you put the two alleles of one parent down the left column, and the other parent across the top row (it doesn't really matter which parent goes where, it works out the same either way.) Where a row and column meet, just enter the letter code from the matching row and column. According to this, since you have every possible allele on the agouti gene in play, you have a 50/50 chance of a kit being an agouti, a 25% (or 1 in 4) chance of it being a non-agouti like tort, black, chocolate, blue or lilac, and a 25% chance it will be tan pattern (either otter or marten depending on the other genes.

B: black is dominant; chocolate is recessive Orange can have either black or chocolate in the background, chocolate tends to make cleaner, brighter coats. Since the orange buck's opal grandparent carries black, and his mother is black tortoise shell we can assume he will pass along a black allele (allele is just a fancy word for a possible choice on a given gene. The choices on the black gene are a simple black or recessive brown, on other genes you might have up to five different choices, like on the 'C' gene that comes next. The doe is a blue silver marten, blue is black plus dilute, so she'll probably be passing along black as well. Either could have chocolate as a recessive, so chocolate based kits (chocolate tort, cinnamon agouti, chocolate chinchilla, self chocolate, lilac, lynx, etc.) are not out of the question. If you see any of these chocolate-based colors in your litters, you'll know that both of the parents have a recessive chocolate allele to go with the black, as they will each have to contribute a chocolate allele for chocolate to be expressed.

C: full normal color is dominant; in descending order of dominance: chinchilla is next, sable next, then pointed white Himalayan and lastly albino red-eyed white. Your buck is normal full-color 'C', as is his tort and opal relatives. However, he does have an albino grandparent, so he could be Cc. The doe is a marten, that means she carries the chinchilla dark c(chd) allele, but her mother is a siamese sable, which is a more recessive chinchilla light c(chl) option, usually just called the sable or shaded gene. Since the doe is a marten, we know she has chinchilla c(chd), and her mother could only pass along either her sable c(chl) or an even more recessive albino cc if she carries it. Let's make a guess that the buck is Cc, and the doe c(chd) c(chl), just for fun.


This means you have a 50/50 chance of normal full color kits (like torts, agouti, blacks, etc.), a 25% chance a kit will be a chinchilla based color, and a 25% chance for sable based colors (like pearl, seal, siamese sable, etc.)

Stay tuned for part 2. . .

D: Dense color is dominant; dilute (weaker, pastel) color is recessive. Your buck is full dense color if he is an orange, but he has an opal ancestor, which is a recessive dilute. The doe is also a dilute. Let's guess he still carries the dilute recessive, and is Dd, she would be recessive dd.
View attachment 32215
So, there's a 50/50 chance of full color (like chestnut agouti, black, chocolate) and a 50/50 chance of dilute color (opal, blue, lilac). If the buck is really all full color DD, all the kits will be full dense color, but will carry dilute.

E: Steel is dominant E(S), then in descending order of dominance: normal extension of color E, then harlequin e(j), and lastly recessive fawn ee (also called orange, as well as the dilute version called fawn or cream depending on breed, and the rufus modified red/copper). There's actually a very rare dominant black agouti E(D) that is agouti but turns everything black that is dominant over everything, but you're not likely to run into it.) Your orange buck will be the most recessive ee, so he can only contribute an 'e'. Marten is normal extension E. Assuming there's no steel or harlequin hiding in the background, and assuming there is no recessive fawn in the doe's pedigree (which is hard to tell, because both sable and chin don't allow any any existing fawn genetics to actually produce that color in the hair), we get. . .
View attachment 32216
Which means that there will be no orange kits, but they will all carry the recessive genetics for it when bred back to an orange, where you have 50/50 odds of getting oranges in the next generation. Of course, if the doe actually has a recessive orange gene hiding in there, then your odds go up to 50/50 in her litter to the orange buck.

En spotting is dominant, not-spotted is recessive. Your doe is out of a broken chinchilla, but she is listed as a Vienna carrier VC, not Vienna marked VM. If she did have white markings, it might be difficult to deduce whether it was due to the Vienna blue-eyed white gene, or to the broken En spotting, or both, as 'booted' brokens with little white markings can look just like the Vienna Dutch-marked VM rabbits due to the Vienna gene. Since she is not marked, she is not a broken carrier. Broken is dominant, so a recessive is simply not spotted, and can't carry the dominant broken genetics. Neither the buck or doe seems to be broken, so they can only pass along the recessive non-broken genetics.

Vienna blue-eyed white is recessive, non-Vienna normal is dominant. Which finally brings us to the last letter in this alphabet soup. Vienna genetics are insidious, often cropping up generations later. Your buck doesn't show any Vienna, but the doe MAY be a carrier, as her mother was a white-eared, Vienna marked rabbit, and I don't know what goes behind that. If the doe is not a carrier, then she shouldn't pass along any of the Vienna traits. If she is a carrier, even though she doesn't exhibit any blue-eyed white traits, here's what you can expect. . .
View attachment 32217
This means even though neither parent has any outward signs of the Vienna blue-eyed white gene, half of the kits will still be Vienna carriers, or Vienna marked (usually a white snip on the nose, white on the feet, sometimes white on the chest or where a Dutch rabbit would have white markings, which is why it is sometimes called Dutch-marked.) If you mate two of these VM/VC rabbits together, you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting Vienna blue-eyed white kits. Of course, you can't tell which kit is a Vienna carrier, and which is not Vienna by looking at them, which is how this genetics can keep showing up long after the initial Vienna carriers are off the pedigree. When they have the Vienna marks, that makes it easy to tell.

So, what does all this mean? These odds are the odds for any one given kit to be a certain color. Enter Lady Luck, and the whole probability things goes askew. You could get all bucks, or all does, even though the expected odds are closer to 50/50. Same with any of these colors. We're just playing the odds here.

A: 50% chance of agouti, 25% tan, 25% self non-agouti
B: Probably black-based colors (black or blue with dilution)
C: 50% chance of full color, 25% chance of chinchilla, 25% sable
D: 50/50 chance full dense color vs. dilute.
E: Not expecting orange, but the kits will all carry the recessive; unless the doe has recessive fawn hiding in the background, which would up the odds to 50/50.
En: No spots expected
V: No blue-eyed white kits, but half of the kits should be carriers of the BEW genetics, and may have white spots show up on toenails, feet or face that render the kits unshowable.

How does this put together? Agouti + black = chestnut agouti, add in dilute and you get opal.
Tan + black = black otter, add in dilute and you get blue otter. Add in chin or sable and you get black or blue marten. Agouti + chinchilla + black = black chin, add in dilute and you get squirrel. Non-agouti + black + sable = Siamese sable, add in dilute and you get a blue smoked sable. If you get any chocolate based or orange based colors (like torts or oranges), you know both parents have to carry that trait. Long answer to a short question.

judymac said:

D: Dense color is dominant; dilute (weaker, pastel) color is recessive. Your buck is full dense color if he is an orange, but he has an opal ancestor, which is a recessive dilute. The doe is also a dilute. Let's guess he still carries the dilute recessive, and is Dd, she would be recessive dd.
View attachment 32215
So, there's a 50/50 chance of full color (like chestnut agouti, black, chocolate) and a 50/50 chance of dilute color (opal, blue, lilac). If the buck is really all full color DD, all the kits will be full dense color, but will carry dilute.

E: Steel is dominant E(S), then in descending order of dominance: normal extension of color E, then harlequin e(j), and lastly recessive fawn ee (also called orange, as well as the dilute version called fawn or cream depending on breed, and the rufus modified red/copper). There's actually a very rare dominant black agouti E(D) that is agouti but turns everything black that is dominant over everything, but you're not likely to run into it.) Your orange buck will be the most recessive ee, so he can only contribute an 'e'. Marten is normal extension E. Assuming there's no steel or harlequin hiding in the background, and assuming there is no recessive fawn in the doe's pedigree (which is hard to tell, because both sable and chin don't allow any any existing fawn genetics to actually produce that color in the hair), we get. . .
View attachment 32216
Which means that there will be no orange kits, but they will all carry the recessive genetics for it when bred back to an orange, where you have 50/50 odds of getting oranges in the next generation. Of course, if the doe actually has a recessive orange gene hiding in there, then your odds go up to 50/50 in her litter to the orange buck.

En spotting is dominant, not-spotted is recessive. Your doe is out of a broken chinchilla, but she is listed as a Vienna carrier VC, not Vienna marked VM. If she did have white markings, it might be difficult to deduce whether it was due to the Vienna blue-eyed white gene, or to the broken En spotting, or both, as 'booted' brokens with little white markings can look just like the Vienna Dutch-marked VM rabbits due to the Vienna gene. Since she is not marked, she is not a broken carrier. Broken is dominant, so a recessive is simply not spotted, and can't carry the dominant broken genetics. Neither the buck or doe seems to be broken, so they can only pass along the recessive non-broken genetics.

Vienna blue-eyed white is recessive, non-Vienna normal is dominant. Which finally brings us to the last letter in this alphabet soup. Vienna genetics are insidious, often cropping up generations later. Your buck doesn't show any Vienna, but the doe MAY be a carrier, as her mother was a white-eared, Vienna marked rabbit, and I don't know what goes behind that. If the doe is not a carrier, then she shouldn't pass along any of the Vienna traits. If she is a carrier, even though she doesn't exhibit any blue-eyed white traits, here's what you can expect. . .
View attachment 32217
This means even though neither parent has any outward signs of the Vienna blue-eyed white gene, half of the kits will still be Vienna carriers, or Vienna marked (usually a white snip on the nose, white on the feet, sometimes white on the chest or where a Dutch rabbit would have white markings, which is why it is sometimes called Dutch-marked.) If you mate two of these VM/VC rabbits together, you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting Vienna blue-eyed white kits. Of course, you can't tell which kit is a Vienna carrier, and which is not Vienna by looking at them, which is how this genetics can keep showing up long after the initial Vienna carriers are off the pedigree. When they have the Vienna marks, that makes it easy to tell.

So, what does all this mean? These odds are the odds for any one given kit to be a certain color. Enter Lady Luck, and the whole probability things goes askew. You could get all bucks, or all does, even though the expected odds are closer to 50/50. Same with any of these colors. We're just playing the odds here.

A: 50% chance of agouti, 25% tan, 25% self non-agouti
B: Probably black-based colors (black or blue with dilution)
C: 50% chance of full color, 25% chance of chinchilla, 25% sable
D: 50/50 chance full dense color vs. dilute.
E: Not expecting orange, but the kits will all carry the recessive; unless the doe has recessive fawn hiding in the background, which would up the odds to 50/50.
En: No spots expected
V: No blue-eyed white kits, but half of the kits should be carriers of the BEW genetics, and may have white spots show up on toenails, feet or face that render the kits unshowable.

How does this put together? Agouti + black = chestnut agouti, add in dilute and you get opal.
Tan + black = black otter, add in dilute and you get blue otter. Add in chin or sable and you get black or blue marten. Agouti + chinchilla + black = black chin, add in dilute and you get squirrel. Non-agouti + black + sable = Siamese sable, add in dilute and you get a blue smoked sable. If you get any chocolate based or orange based colors (like torts or oranges), you know both parents have to carry that trait. Long answer to a short question.

Click to expand...

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your time and this fantastic answer!!

So we conclude orange kits are not possible unless the buck were to carry dilute? (So it would be creams, not actually oranges) And when you say Agouti, that is meaning chestnut, correct?

No, oranges won't happen unless the doe carries a recessive orange that we can't see. It takes two orange alleles to make an orange kit, we know that is all the buck can pass down because he is orange, he has two orange alleles and no matter which one he passes down to a kit, it is going to be a recessive orange. If the doe only has the non-orange alleles, it will be dominant over the buck's recessive orange, so the kits will all be something other than orange, but will carry an orange recessive they can pass along to the next generation. If, however, the doe actually has a recessive orange hiding, then you have a 50/50 chance of orange kits.

Colors are modified by the other genes. (Note, when writing down genetic codes, if you don't know what the second allele after a dominant one is, you just put down a dash after the dominant allele that you know.) Agouti simply means that the rabbit has bands of color on a single hairshaft. The main color is on the outer band, then a fawn/orange band in the center, and a base color. Usually, there is also a colored tip. Depending on the other genes, you can have a variety of agouti colors, not just chestnut. Chestnut agouti is the most dominant color, and it is the color of wild rabbits. Agouti 'AA' or 'Aa' plus. . .

• Agouti + Black 'BB' or 'Bb' + Full color 'CC' or 'C-' + Dense 'DD' or 'Dd' + Normal extension 'EE' or 'E-' = Chestnut agouti, with a black tip, chestnut outer band, fawn center band, slate inner band; change dense to dilute 'dd' instead, and you have opal agouti, blue outer tip, mostly blue fiber with a fawn inner band
• Agouti + Chocolate 'bb' + Full color 'C-' + Dense 'DD' or 'Dd' + Normal extension 'E-'= Cinnamon/chocolate agouti, with a chocolate tip, tan outer band, fawn center band, dove inner band. Change dense to dilute 'dd' instead, and you have lynx agouti, lilac tip, tan outer band, fawn inner band, pale lilac undercolor (in some breeds you need a white undercolor.)
• Agouti + either black or chocolate + Dense 'DD' or 'Dd' + fawn 'ee' = Fawn/orange (name depends on breed). Change dense to dilute and you have Cream/fawn (name depends on breed.) Change the agouti to non-agouti 'aa', and you have a tort. Add rufus modifiers and you have red.
• Agouti + Black 'BB' or 'Bb' + chinchilla 'c(chd)' + Dense 'DD' or 'Dd' + Normal extension 'E-' = Chinchilla, with a black tip, slate outer band, pearl white center band, slate inner band. Change the dense to dilute 'dd', and you have squirrel instead, with blue replacing the slate.
• Agouti + Chocolate 'bb' + chinchilla 'c(chd)' + Dense 'DD' or 'Dd' + Normal extension 'E-' = chocolate chin; change the dense to dilute 'dd', and you have lilac chin.