Lilac Chinchilla?

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This is an agouti sable, aka sable chin. It is shaded, rather than chinchilla : A_B_c(chl)_D_E_
I would think it carries REW or Himi as it is fairly light.
 
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I just looked at his pedigree, he Carry’s, Chin, Self Chin, Rew, Dalmatian, magpie, red, harlequin, tri, cal, Amber, black, castor, fawn, and Otter. I have the 7 gen pedigrees for all my rabbits and that’s what I can see. As far as I know sable is something that NONE of my rabbits carry, cuz it’s not on any of they’re pedigrees.
 
he carries shaded something though... you can see that with the points. it's just right there. you can see it in his ears, nose, and paws. so I have to wonder where it comes from. Genes can hide well.

you said "harlequin, tri, cal, Amber" what is the cal? is that pointed? Californian?
 
Jackrabbit said:
I just looked at his pedigree, he Carry’s, Chin, Self Chin, Rew, Dalmatian, magpie, red, harlequin, tri, cal, Amber, black, castor, fawn, and Otter. I have the 7 gen pedigrees for all my rabbits and that’s what I can see. As far as I know sable is something that NONE of my rabbits carry, cuz it’s not on any of they’re pedigrees.
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A pedigree is just a record of parentage - it doesn't record what any siblings might have been. Your rabbit won't (and can't!) carry all of those colours, and he may well carry some not seen on there.
I am pretty certain he has Shaded from the fact his head, ears and feet are darker (something that is not a feature of true chinchilla) and because his body colour is fairly light, he most likely carries REW. A sable agouti (sable chin) with two shaded genes can greatly resemble 'true' Chinchilla so perhaps some of those in his background were misidentified.
 
He's agouti based, as he has ticking, white ear lacing and nostrils (and certainly will have a white belly as well)... so he's A_. His base colouring is black, so B_.
He has shading so he's not a chinchilla; he has black eyes so he's not Cali or Himi, and he's not a REW so he must be c(chl). He seems light on body colour so he might carry REW or Himi, meaning he's c(chl)c or c(chl)c(ch).
He's not a dilute colour such as blue or lilac, so D_.
The remaining part of the equation is his e locus - He's not harlequin or magpie, and he's not steel so that eliminates e(j) and E(s) meaning he could be E_ but non-extension could also be possible, that would make him ee which is a sable Frosty. If he was chin +ee he would be an ermine and he has way too much ticking for that.
 
If there's no ring color it's not a phenotypic chinchilla. Can't be a himi (or cal or pointed white, which are all the same thing genetically) or REW due to the eye color.
Really looks like an ermine to me, which is basically a non-extension chinchilla <A_ B_ cchd_ D_ ee. Although non-extension colors are not "shaded" they often look like they are, and are actually classed as shaded in some breeds' standards. Other non-extension colors (e.g. tort) look shaded, and can also have a lot of smut, i.e."ticking," due to the effect of the non-extension gene being less on shorter hairs. Since a rex has *all* shorter hairs, you might expect to see a lot more smut. But even some of my ermine Satins look like frosties or like himis with dark eyes.
I'm leaning against sallander <aa B_ cchd_ D_ ee> since that's a self and this rabbit seems to have eye circles and laced ears.
 
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MsTemeraire said:
He's agouti based, as he has ticking, white ear lacing and nostrils (and certainly will have a white belly as well)... so he's A_. His base colouring is black, so B_.
He has shading so he's not a chinchilla; he has black eyes so he's not Cali or Himi, and he's not a REW so he must be c(chl). He seems light on body colour so he might carry REW or Himi, meaning he's c(chl)c or c(chl)c(ch).
He's not a dilute colour such as blue or lilac, so D_.
The remaining part of the equation is his e locus - He's not harlequin or magpie, and he's not steel so that eliminates e(j) and E(s) meaning he could be E_ but non-extension could also be possible, that would make him ee which is a sable Frosty. If he was chin +ee he would be an ermine and he has way too much ticking for that.
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You guys remind me of my recent HOUR LONG conversation explaining how a woman's AKC registered litter couldn't be the product of their alleged pedigree, despite the "but they're AKC registered" statement. It was a failed effort. Two solid black shepherds cannot ever have a Sable litter. Sable is never a recessive in German Shepherds, it always expresses.
I can't even begin to unravel the rabbit coloration, so I think I'll stick with something simple: Champagne D'Argent is what I'm looking at getting.
 
Espiritus said:
You guys remind me of my recent HOUR LONG conversation explaining how a woman's AKC registered litter couldn't be the product of their alleged pedigree, despite the "but they're AKC registered" statement. It was a failed effort. Two solid black shepherds cannot ever have a Sable litter. Sable is never a recessive in German Shepherds, it always expresses.
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Is dominant black, KB, in the breed? It could be possible if one parent was dominant black and the other recessive black.
 
Espiritus said:
You guys remind me of my recent HOUR LONG conversation explaining how a woman's AKC registered litter couldn't be the product of their alleged pedigree, despite the "but they're AKC registered" statement. It was a failed effort. Two solid black shepherds cannot ever have a Sable litter. Sable is never a recessive in German Shepherds, it always expresses.
I can't even begin to unravel the rabbit coloration, so I think I'll stick with something simple: Champagne D'Argent is what I'm looking at getting.
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I've learned the hard way to "never say never" in genetics, haha...there are too many unknowns, modifiers, unexpected interactions and linkages, etc. For example, I used to say that if you bred two (recessive) rex-coated rabbits, you'd always get rex-coated kits. Until I discovered that there is not one, not two, but at least three different genes that produce that coat type (that we know of so far)! And they don't always cooperate with each other to make a rex coat... so you *can* get a normal-furred rabbit out of two rex-coated ones!
I absolutely love the Champagne d'Argent - it's the only breed that might pull me away from Satins! - but good luck with Champagnes as a "simple" color. Even though the silvered breeds are very old, the gene for silvering is one of the less-well-understood genes; in fact as far as I know it hasn't actually been directly identified. It appears that it may be partially-dominant - sometimes the silvering effect is seen in heterozygotes, sometimes it's not - and the amount of silvering seems to be heritable, but that may be due to differences in the genes themselves, in modifiers, both of those, and/or something else. And since Champagnes are black-based, which is dominant, you can't rule out having a different color (blue, brown, or lilac) pop up if there's been an outcross with a rabbit carrying chocolate or dilute, even in the distant past.
But what fun it is!
Genetics geeks, unite! :)
 
MsTemeraire said:
Is dominant black, KB, in the breed? It could be possible if one parent was dominant black and the other recessive black.
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There isn't a dominate black gene in German Shepherds, it's a recessive (bb) requiring two to express. Sable IS dominate, requiring only one to express. White is a masking gene & is the only thing that can cover a Sable (although we have a dilute allele but that's another matter).

So, two blacks would have to produce an all black litter. Having sables means it was her young, unproven Sable male that had "done the deed". There was ONE black puppy, but since the Sable carried a black recessive, they had to DNA all the puppies before AKC would reinstate the papers.
 

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