Kits keep dying

Please help. I bought a rescue rabbit for my daughter about 3 weeks ago, she gave birth the next day to 11 rabbits, 1 still born, and we moved her to a huge cage and would bring them indoors at night (even though its summer it still gets a little chilly at dawn) so I could see she was feeding them only once at night. After 2 weeks I stopped bringing them in as it had gotten hotter and the doe ran away (this was less than a week ago).

2 kits in the litter always looked like they were about to die they were very bony and small while the others were fat fluffy and had already opened their eyes. After the mother ran away I put them on Similac (which was supposed to be temporary until I could get some goats milk) yesterday I saw one of the small kits laying on its side, i thought it was dead but i picked it up and it was breathing occasionally gasping for air and the other small one seemed to be 'drunk' the first one died an hour or two later I made sure it was warm and the same thing happened to the other one a few hours later and it died by morning. This was on Wednesday, and I the same thing seems to be happening to 3 more, one is already dying and can't even open his mouth to eat I fed the other two and they seem to be better but they won't sit with the rest of the litter, they sit on the other side of the cage.

I read a lot about this and some said it could be because they were born that way or some form of indigestion caused by a sudden change in diet. If this is so, I am frightened to change their food again? Their bedding is grass hay and they eat it and the mothers droppings that she left behind, so I started introducing small amounts of romaine lettuce and plan on adding a different kind every few days. The rest of the kits seem healthy, fat and fluffy, but the other 3 that now seem to be sick seemed to be healthy and active this morning.. Its very important for me to know if I should switch to goats milk and what foods I should introduce now that they are 3 weeks old

Also I read by 3 weeks they should be eating 5-7cc of milk. They do not. After about 3 cc some of them stop eating and some, their stomachs start getting 'hard' (it only starts getting hard, I don't let it get to the point where it is hard)

Please, Please, Please help me! We have rescued a lot of animals but never lost any! I don't think I can handle losing another one! What's happening to them?

Stop feeding lettuce. Do not give any veggies or fruits at all. If you give anything green it should be tough forage that you know hasn't been sprayed with anything. Rabbits are herbivores and browsers not vegetarians. Human food has too much sugar and water causing digestive upset. Put them on a diet of grass hay and oats of some kind. Plain oatmeal works fine and can be soaked in the formula. I would go ahead and change to a herbivore milk aside from cow. I actually use goat kid powdered milk supplement mixed to double concentration. A milk change should not cause problems as long as it isn't cow milk. Adding veggies will cause problems and especially rotating them.

When you finally do add greens you should add one at a time and stick with it regularly for a week or so before adding another. Like I said tough forage is also better than human veggies and fruits. You'd be surprised how many wild plants are edible and make more suitable rabbit food.

They probably have weaning enteritis. I would separate out the sick ones, but keep them together for warmth. Start feeding everybody oats- like Quaker Old Fashioned oatmeal. Not the quick cooking type. I would also get them on goat's milk ASAP- you can by it in powder form at a feed store, and can sprinkle it on their food dry as well as feeding it in liquid form. Also put them on a probiotic paste- I have a tube of Jump-Start Plus by Manna Pro on hand in case of emergency.

Look in the Natural Feeding Forum for ideas of good forage plants to give them.

Good luck!

Ah- I see Akane beat me to the post... lol.

Thank you SO much for your replies. I took them off similac and put them on goats milk. The thing is i dont know which ones are sick its literally like one minute they are okay and then the next they lay on their side with their head tilted gasping for air, then a few hours later they are dead. This is killing me I lost 4 of the 10 I had and one is almost dead and one seems to be dying, I took them out of the cage and put them in a safe area. Is there anything I can do?!

What is the temperature there? They may be too hot or too cold. You can give them either a hot water bottle or one filled with ice to lay against if they choose to.

I'm sorry you are losing them.

Its summer and they are inside, its not hot and its not cold.

3 week olds should be able to regulate their temperature and you should actually be able to wean them fully off formula or milk. I've taken less than 2 week olds and just fed them oatmeal or pellets soaked in goat kid formula for a few days until they understood that was food and had them eating dry oatmeal or softened pellets and hay by 2 1/2 weeks. At 3 weeks I'd barely bother with formula and milk. I might use it to soften pellets or oatmeal and that's it with lots of grass hay. Keeping the diet simple is very important when they hit this stage. Since you've already given them other things a probiotic would be a very good idea. You can buy it at the feedstore or even a pharmacy sells several products for humans. A last ditch idea is to take the cleanest droppings you can get from a healthy adult, dissolve in water, and syringe it to them or mix with food. Sounds disgusting but rabbits would regularly do this and most other baby animals eat their parents droppings to some extent in order to get the correct bacteria in their gut. We've done it with guinea pigs on antibiotics since their digestive tract is so sensitive to antibiotics.

I agree with the advice already given, but just want to add that they need plain water as well once they are eating solids. A fairly flat dish is best... something they can get out of if they chance to fall in.

I'm so sorry, Dianeor!

The advice you've been offered already is very sound, so I hope you're able to nurse the rest of the kits through! :clover:

how old are they now?

They really don't NEED milk after they are 17 days old as long as they are eating hay and oatmeal. If they are drinking water that's all they need.

After all they've been through, the only suggestion I might add is that they may need some probiotics to help stabilize their gut.

Thanks everyone, I now only have 4 left and did everything you guys advised and I am hoping I lose no more.. One thing, I can't find old fashioned oats here in Israel? I asked the lady at the supermarket and she gave me a can of Quaker White Oats and said that was it and I was in a hurry to get back to the rabbit but when I god home it says "Quick Cooking" I literally looked at everything and there is no such thing here. Can I maybe get them alfa alfa pellets instead or some other kind that could substitute oats? I will try a store that imports things from the USA, but I don't know if they will have it. About the probiotics, can they be human probiotics? And how much should be used for them? As for the droppings, can I put them in milk to soften them?

Another thing, can I let them go in the garden and eat what they like once a day? We have herbs and herbs and whatnot, I used to do that with their mother, or are they too young?

Sorry for all the questions!

P.S the water is always left untouched, and I'm worried because its getting hot during the afternoon so I give them a little through a syringe and that's the only way they take it so I tried buying them one of those hamster bottles (sorry for my very professional terms) but doesn't look like they are using it..

Thanks again for all your help and kindness

feed store. Quicker Old Fashioned are rolled oats, rolled oats are the easiest to digest. Steamed and Crimped Oats are the next level and can be found at a feed store.
You may be keeping them too clean. This could be why they seem to go up and down, too.
-- if you are using antibacterial items and/or a lot of cleaning supplies around them (or on you), you may have (temporarily) compromised their digestive systems. To start you can add Organic Apple Cider vinegar (that has mother, Braggs is one brand) half a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar to about a half a gallon of water. If you can not find that, do you have kombucha in Israel? When the feed store opens see if you can get probiotic paste. If you have any other rabbits, or know someone that has rabbits, go with "akane's" recomendation about droppings.
-- Rabbits and Guinea pigs -> from wiki: "must also supplement their diet by coprophagy, the eating of their own feces.[80] However, they do not consume all their feces indiscriminately, but produce special soft pellets, called cecotropes, which recycle B vitamins, fiber, and bacteria required for proper digestion.[81] The cecotropes (or caecal pellets) are eaten directly from the anus, unless the guinea pig is pregnant or obese.[54] They share this behaviour with rabbits."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig

__________ Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:54 am __________

Rabbits can also be sensitive to water changes. Use the same type of water each time. I know Israel has water distillation (of salt water) and I do not know if you are using tap water or bottled water for the rabbits.<br /><br />__________ Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:00 am __________<br /><br />kombucha is a fermented (live) product, kimchi is too - but is normally made from cabbage. I would not use the liquid off of kimchi, but if you can find live apple cider vinegar or kombucha, it could help.

Thank you. I am using distilled and then filtered water, but its not filtered salt water its fresh water. I don't think israel has filtered salt water, they should but they don't. I only cleaned out the cage after all the other ones seemed to be dying so I disinfected it and washed it but other than that I haven't used any cleaning products around them. I am doing what akane suggested about the droppings.

dianeor":2pyqec6y said:

P.S the water is always left untouched, and I'm worried because its getting hot during the afternoon so I give them a little through a syringe and that's the only way they take it so I tried buying them one of those hamster bottles (sorry for my very professional terms) but doesn't look like they are using it..

Thanks again for all your help and kindness

Click to expand...

Something I've found to draw kits to water is by adding ice cubes to it in the middle of the day. They will attempt to stay cooler during the warmer times of the day, and once they realize that their water crock is cool, they will put 2+2 together, realize that it's cold, and be drawn to it. Generally doesn't take long for them to figure it out.

How old are the babies. ? I dont see it mentioned anywhere...

the instant oatmeal will do just fine in a pinch so don't worry on it.

give them the oatmeal, and hay.

ONCE they are stabilized put them out to munch on safe greens. I'd easily do that once a day, but not until they are stabilized and doing well.

If you can get goat's milk yogurt, that should have the probiotics that would help them, too, if you feel you need something else. Just make sure it's live.

If you are using a pet stores, rabbit pellets, the pellets may have too many treats in them. If ALL the pellets do not look alike, then those pellets may not be the best thing for the babies to have, right now. When you get the crimped/rolled oats, you can go to just hay/straw and crimped/rolled oats.
- this next link is good, with these cavets!
1)If you add any bread, make sure the bread is yeast bread w/o aluminum.
2)The babies could be short of electrolytes. - Salt licks should be the dark ones (guinea pigs, rabbits) that have minerals and salt.
3)? your babies are about 3 1/2 weeks old now?
http://www1.extension.umn.edu/youth/mn4 ... rition.pdf<br /><br />__________ Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:06 pm __________<br /><br />

ladysown":1smyjh78 said:

the instant oatmeal will do just fine in a pinch so don't worry on it.

give them the oatmeal, and hay.

ONCE they are stabilized put them out to munch on safe greens. I'd easily do that once a day, but not until they are stabilized and doing well.

Click to expand...

"Ladysown" is right, about the oats, but you will have to make sure that they are eating hay or straw, if you do. Instant oats are like polished rice, they have removed the fiber or much of the fiber. Rabbits, being herbivores, with hindgut digestion, require (a lot of) fiber. I might suggest, that with all the ups and downs, that you have had, this far - that you limit the outdoor time to just a half hour the first time you do it - and see how it works for them.
----------
Elimination diet - in this case elimination facts
1) initial problems may have been caused because of feeding vegetables/greens, the rabbits were eating (what they thought of as sweets) and not enough hay. Simply taking away the extra stuff would mean that they have to eat the hay, and the problem could have resolved itself. Rabbits can not throw up or burp, gas causes bloating and they can die from something like iceberg lettuce or cabbage. Some yard grasses (like some clovers) can be poisonous, too.
2) What type of hay are you using, where did you get it from, a feed store? Not all hay is equal.

Wow, thank you everyone for all the advice and help. I lost another one today he was fine until this afternoon then the next time I checked on him he was on his side. I literally check on them every 30 minutes because I'm scared out of my mind. I have been doing everything you guys have said so far. Everything I give them is from the garden we live in the countryside so we just grow everything outside.

The grass and the grass hay are also from the garden, but I know which grass to give them because their mom used to eat it. Is it better if I get it at a feed store? Is it processed or something?

They are still eating the milk because they seem to be starving also no one said anything about them eating only 3 cc? I don't think its enough for 3 1/2 weeks old, but after the 3 cc their stomach gets hard and I am scared to overfeed, though they seem to want more. Maybe they are not eating enough hay?

Also in the afternoon I started feeding them droppings soaked in some warm milk. They weren't very happy at first but I think they were hungry so they ate a bit.

What about alfa alfa hay? I heard this was great for kits?

Should I really be giving then Quick Cooking oatmeal? Even if its just a pinch? they are dropping like flies. I couldn't handle this one dying I just sat and cried.

Considering you are in Israel and I do not know what you have by way of pet stores/ feed stores to acquire what we think of as normal. SO - Until someone else chimes in - a basic help - to get more fiber in them. Go to a pet store / feed store - in the rabbit / guinea pig area - should be a package of tree wood / small branches. These branches are untreated - from trees - that are safe for the rabbit.
- I think you have a sever fiber problem. What an adult rabbit can get by on, may not be suitable for babies, especially babies that seem to have compromised digestive systems.
- the person that gave you the rabbit droppings - do they feed hay? Can you get some from them?<br /><br />__________ Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:41 pm __________<br /><br />Since you bought the rabbit as a rescue. Does your rescue group have any support for the animals they rehome?
Our rescue groups have a high level of aktivism (sometimes to high) and should have given you support. Normally that support is also going to require a vet. What are your groups like?