Questions and comments about plant safety for rabbits.

avdpas77":1gb6l8yn said:

A word about "sweet" clover (Melilotus officinalis/M. alba)

Sweet clover contains a substance known as coumarin, which is a blood thinner. It is the substance which gives its sap that characteristic smell. If the plant is damaged or "smashed" like is done when making hay, it can get a mold that is not readily obvious, which causes the coumain to be converted to dicoumarin, a much stronger blood thinner. Both substances are in the same group of chemicals as "wafarin" and other progressive rodent poisons. These chemicals inhibit the usage of Vitamin K in mammals. (Alfalfa, btw, contains a fair amount of vitamin K.)

One should be judicious about feeding the green plant or the hay.

A more in depth explanation can be found by Googling "sweet clover toxicity"

Click to expand...

Thank You, I am trying to go pellet free and I found this about hay, and am searching for plants that help with iodine, too. BTW: refers to rabbits develop fatal hemorrhages more rapidly (from the hay) than cattle.
"Hay Varieties to Avoid for Horse Hay and Pasture Compiled from a variety of sources
We have been repeatedly asked about feeding clover to horses. Unfortunately, many hays and/or pasture contain clover. While many horse owners feed it as a portion/percentage of the hay, the experts caution against feeding clovers to horses.
Also as a service to our customers, please note the warning, at the end, about Red Maple trees, and how they may affect your horses.
Below, please find a BRIEF overview regarding clovers.
Pat Coleby’s Natural Horse Care, “Iodine is absolutely essential for the healthy of the thyroid gland which controls the health of all the glands in the whole body—no thyroid, no life. Therefore, if an animal is iodine deficient, no matter what feed or minerals or vitamins it is given, they will not be assimilated properly until the iodine requirements are met.”
She also goes on to say that iodine deficiency should always be considered as the base cause of practically every problem.
Interestingly, Coleby also adds that a potent and common cause of iodine deficiency is the overfeeding of legumes such as alfalfa and clover...because, in extreme cases, they cause the goiter to swell. “Feeding too many legumes will cause a preponderance of male offspring. The female fetus has the greatest need for iodine. If there is a deficiency, she does not develop and is probably reabsorbed. It is also possible in some cases that females are not even conceived.”<br /><br />__________ Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:18 pm __________<br /><br />

Piper":1gb6l8yn said:

avdpas77":1gb6l8yn said:

A word about "sweet" clover (Melilotus officinalis/M. alba)

Sweet clover contains a substance known as coumarin, which is a blood thinner. It is the substance which gives its sap that characteristic smell. If the plant is damaged or "smashed" like is done when making hay, it can get a mold that is not readily obvious, which causes the coumain to be converted to dicoumarin, a much stronger blood thinner. Both substances are in the same group of chemicals as "wafarin" and other progressive rodent poisons. These chemicals inhibit the usage of Vitamin K in mammals. (Alfalfa, btw, contains a fair amount of vitamin K.)

One should be judicious about feeding the green plant or the hay.

A more in depth explanation can be found by Googling "sweet clover toxicity"

Click to expand...

Thank You, I am trying to go pellet free and I found this about hay, and am searching for plants that help with iodine, too. BTW: refers to rabbits develop fatal hemorrhages more rapidly (from the hay) than cattle.
"Hay Varieties to Avoid for Horse Hay and Pasture Compiled from a variety of sources
We have been repeatedly asked about feeding clover to horses. Unfortunately, many hays and/or pasture contain clover. While many horse owners feed it as a portion/percentage of the hay, the experts caution against feeding clovers to horses.
Also as a service to our customers, please note the warning, at the end, about Red Maple trees, and how they may affect your horses.
Below, please find a BRIEF overview regarding clovers.
Pat Coleby’s Natural Horse Care, “Iodine is absolutely essential for the healthy of the thyroid gland which controls the health of all the glands in the whole body—no thyroid, no life. Therefore, if an animal is iodine deficient, no matter what feed or minerals or vitamins it is given, they will not be assimilated properly until the iodine requirements are met.”
She also goes on to say that iodine deficiency should always be considered as the base cause of practically every problem.
Interestingly, Coleby also adds that a potent and common cause of iodine deficiency is the overfeeding of legumes such as alfalfa and clover...because, in extreme cases, they cause the goiter to swell. “Feeding too many legumes will cause a preponderance of male offspring. The female fetus has the greatest need for iodine. If there is a deficiency, she does not develop and is probably reabsorbed. It is also possible in some cases that females are not even conceived.”

Click to expand...

This is the url that I referenced: http://pdf.profitproag.com/Database/Hay ... 0Avoid.pdf

Piper":2pft7p7n said:

Interestingly, Coleby also adds that a potent and common cause of iodine deficiency is the overfeeding of legumes such as alfalfa and clover...because, in extreme cases, they cause the goiter to swell. “Feeding too many legumes will cause a preponderance of male offspring. The female fetus has the greatest need for iodine. If there is a deficiency, she does not develop and is probably reabsorbed. It is also possible in some cases that females are not even conceived.”

Click to expand...

Anyone know how much alfalfa and clover to give? Should it be the majority or a minor part of the daily greens? edited to ask this question: How do legumes affect iodine levels?

Also, one way to fix iodine deficiency is to provide a trace mineral lick- which has iodine in it.

I've never seen any ill effects and my rabbits eat alfalfa every day in the form of hay. Rabbits that eat pellets are also eating alfalfa regularly. I can believe that if it is not balanced off with other items of diet that it could prove a problem though. I have not seen any decline in the percentage of females in the litters either.

!Question, at end of this!
The reason that I added this is that, recomendations I have seen are for Timothy hay. Waco, Texas does not seem to have very much Timothy, but California seems to. So, Timothy being grass hay, I have been trying to find a provider of inexpensive grass hay, cheaper than my local TS or Atwoods. Seeing this, I am buying from them, till I know a "Lot" more about hay!
I have been trying to go pellet free, non GMO, non pharmaceutical/ vet, buy hay, provide green grown cover and have my rabbits outside. Since pellet free diets seem to be getting a broader audience, thought it was a good time to research what has been recommended. {tongue in cheek - I am not mentioning any organizations...}. It seems as if, if someone were to 'willy nilly', go pellet free - based on recommendations from some sites, you "could" find yourself and your rabbit, in a vet's office. Though you could buy the box of rabbit feed, with the assorted hays, that are sold by some organizations...
Question: if you go pellet free, do you need hay? Should I ask this question in another thread, though?

Piper, more people will see your questions/concerns if you start a new thread.

MamaSheepdog":3dcqnj5o said:

Piper, more people will see your questions/concerns if you start a new thread.

Click to expand...

Thank You, I found the 'sticky' for Natural Feeding!

Bull Thistle (Cirsium vulgare), edible to people, what about rabbits? I know there are many kinds of Thistle, can't remember if these are ok. It's not on the main list, just the yellow dandelion looking flower versions...
There's also a Canada Thistle, purple flower like the Bull.

Sorry, I can't help you with this one, CnB. I'm not up on the thistles. I know some are supposed to be okay for rabbits, but they are so unpleasant to harvest and I'd rather not give my rabbits something with such nasty spines.

I know you have to cook potatoes tubers for rabbits to eat them, but what about the vines? I also recall hearing of "potato hay", but that might be a style of shredding. I have recently been planting sprouted root veggies, would love to be able to share that "almost gone" potato with the bunnies rather than have to cut the sprouts off and waste half of it.

Potato vines are toxic. They are a member of the Nightshade family along with tomatoes, peppers, and eggplant. The leaves contain high levels of solanine, which is a poison. When a potato tuber turns green it indicates that the potato has rising levels of solanine, which is why we are cautioned against eating them. Incidentally, green tomatoes also contain solanine, which is why they are served cooked.

Here is more info on solanine and its effects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine

After 2 years of liver scans and gallbladder tests and blood checks for all sorts of nasties, none of which were ever positive (oh yeah, and a fun colonoscopy), here I read that it might have been green potato poisoning! I always heard that "green potatoes won't hurt you if you cook them", but that article says it's only FRYING that's a sure thing! I typically boil small red potatoes into my stews, skins and all, 'cause the skins are good fiber, but I was not inspecting very closely to see if they'd gone green. Thanks for the link MSD, you might have just improved my health! Of course, retiring from being around a school full of kids wiping their noses and then handing back my crayons helps too!

dragonladyleanne":1p1n1d45 said:

Thanks for the link MSD, you might have just improved my health!

Click to expand...

Well that's an unexpected bonus of posting on RT! :cheesysmile:

MamaSheepdog":2owgw49j said:

green tomatoes also contain solanine, which is why they are served cooked.

Click to expand...

I say Thank You, too! Yesterday, I saw some Green Tomato relish at Atwoods and, I was going to make some - refrigerator relish, like that. Will cook the green tomatoes first, now!

I wonder if plant toxicity in relation to rabbits could be summarised.

Redbunny, I don't like toxicity lists because there is a tendency to assume that if it is not on the list that it is safe. A comprehensive toxic plant list would be almost impossible to compile. It is better to learn what plants are safe and use them. New plants can be added as their safety is confirmed, but start with the Safe Plants for Rabbits list.
safe-plants-for-rabbits-list-t55.html

Remember to use botanical (Latin) names to confirm plant identification. Common names vary from place to place and are therefore not as reliable.

I'm thinking about making a colony for my rabbits. I want to plant some shady/privacy plants around their enclosure, so these are the plants I'm thinking about. Plum tree, mulberry vine, grapevine, roses, willows and raspberries. I'm mostly concerned about the fruiting ones since some lists the bark, leaves are edible but doesn't mention the fruit (mulberry, plum). Should I just avoid these, it'd be impossible to keep fruit from falling in their pen? I love the weeping mulberry I found online and would love to plant it, but I could always find somewhere else for it.

All those are just fine except the plum. The leaves and twigs of drupes (single stoned fruit trees such as cherry, peach, nectarine and plum) are not desirable forage for rabbits. I'm not saying they are drop-dead toxic, just that there are better choices. I would not worry about the mulberry fruits too much. They will not harm the rabbits in moderation... and you can keep them picked for yourselves. Yum!

Okay, thanks! Most plants also say above ground parts only (for safe to eat), will the rabbits tend to dig at roots they shouldn't eat, like raspberries?

The "above ground parts" is meant as a guide to the best use of the plants. It does not mean the roots are toxic. A few, like dandelion, chicory and mallow are such prolific weeds and have roots that are particularly good for rabbits get the "all parts" designation. In most cases, cautions are noted in red. The list really needs updating, but I do not know when I will have the time to do it.

good Infomation