Breeding Age? (update)

I have a trio of New Zealand Reds. My buck was born in July 31 and the does September 9th. I had to work 5 weeks straight this hitch and since I did that next hitch I only have to work 3 weeks straight. My situation is, I will only have to come back to work for 21 days so if I breed my does before I leave I would be back in the US before they kindle. Are my does old enough for their first breeding? I have to come back to work February 19th. If I was breed them on February 18th that would put them at 5 months and 9 days old. Are they to young or would they be alright. I don't get the opportunity to work 3 weeks much so this is rare. I obviously don't want to hurt my does but it would be good timing if I could pull this off. To get them ready to breed I thought about doing what this thread said:
http://rabbittalk.com/fertlility-flushing-t11570.html?uid=1791

All comments and opinions are welcome. I'm trying to learn something here.

I would not even think about it until the does were at least 8 months old. Sure, some animals can handle it-- but you are working with a hard to find color, and the does may not have the genetics for fast maturity behind them. Pregnancy is hard-- and it is even harder when the body is not yet physically and hormonally ramped up for it.

The fertility flushing is meant to optimize conception rates and litter size. Let your does grow. Marsha was several years old before her first litter. I think that made her a better mother than her dam was.

I thought I heard the earliest to mate NZW is 6mo for buck and 7 for doe.

check their weight and see if they are senior weight yet that should be a large deciding factor as well. You should be good by 6 months for sure, I breed between 5.5 and 6 all the time with rex and cali's.

I don't know if your plans are for show, sales or meat.

If for show, your does will likely be stunted and will not reach their full potential weight and may be disqualified from the senior classes for being too small.

If to sell, i would be put off as a buyer if the moms weighted less than the buck, especially in the red NZ as they are known to be on the small side when compared to the white or black.

If for meat then it doesn't matter but I would think that litter size or weight may be less simply because smaller does don't have room for 12 kits, but I don't think they would have problems carrying 8 to a good size.

I often breed 4 month old Rex does, especially if they are chasing and mounting their cage mates. Some of my best brood does have been bred before they reach senior age OR weight. I just make sure they get good nutrition. If you breed and select for early maturing, good mothering, healthy does that's what you will end up with. If you are willing to spend a lot of time and feed on animals that aren't, you will have a herd like that.
Almost all my does reach much more than senior minimum weight. As for showing, I usually don't show does after they have had litters, they are usually home with their kits. There have been exceptions for a few does that I couldn't resist taking when I noticed how nice they looked.

I breed my four months old ALL THE TIME. They're great. They must be fully developed, for NZ's at least 8 lbs, which they generally hit at 14 weeks, and I breed at 18 weeks most of the time, which is 4.5 months. Go for it. Best of luck.<br /><br />__________ Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:24 pm __________<br /><br />I have two NZ reds that are well over 12 lbs and one is over 13 lbs and they were bred at 4.5 months.

I will be home in 2 days so I will weigh them then. If they are not close to senior weight I will wait. There are not a lot of reds in my area. I had to go out of state to get these. I do want to be able to sell them since the trio is pedigreed. Hopefully I can become the NZR breeder in my area and build on that.

They should be at least 75% of senior weight and the vent colour should be dark pink or purple. If they're ready they'll tell you, if they aren't they'll tell you. It does no harm to wait

I start looking for signs of readiness in my does at 16 weeks. If their vulva shows that they are ready, I breed. All the does I've bred that early have done exceptionally well.

ollitos":30gvhygh said:

I start looking for signs of readiness in my does at 16 weeks. If their vulva shows that they are ready, I breed. All the does I've bred that early have done exceptionally well.

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Aren't you raising some reds as well?

I have some broken reds and whites along with Silver Foxes and an Am Chin doe and two does from her.

I think I will call the breeder I goth them from and see what age he started breading the dam they came from. I definitely don't want to do damage to the does.

I'll be honest. Most people think I'm crazy, stupid, cruel, ignorant or any combination of those adjectives when I tell them how young I breed them. So most likely the breeder probably didn't breed so young.

Based on some solid advice from this board, I decided to try it and see. I took my Am Chin mix does and half of my NZ does and breed them starting around 16 weeks. The others, I waited. The ones that I waited on, half did okay. The other half had kits on the wire and didn't feed their babies. Every doe I bred early did excellent. My experience supported the advice I was given: the younger bred does tended to do better as first time mothers than the older does.

I recognize that this is NOT going to be everyone's experience. But it was mine and I'm okay with breeding so young. I am not pushing my does without regard for their health. I'm very careful with them, watch them throughout the pregnancies, post-partum and while nursing their kits. If they start to lose weight or look like they aren't do well, I back off the breeding schedule and give them time.

Bottom line, you need to be in tune with your rabbits and their health. My one doe just didn't want to breed. She was ready and should have lifted every time I bred her. But she wouldn't. So I wasn't going to push it. Unfortunately, that meant culling her.

So, watch your does. Don't be afraid to try what you want with your herd. Determine your goals and find a feeding/breeding/culling/butchering plan that works with your goals.

I started trying to breed my 3 Am Chin does at 5 months, one caught, she is also my smallest doe - 9' 2oz the same weight as my buck. Her full sister had her first litter at 8 months, and is a pound and a half heavier. My show stock doe had a litter at 9 months and is my largest doe at 10'13 oz.

You won't be hurting them, per say, but they are less likely to reach their full potential. My doe who got pregnant young is actually my best doe. She has large litters (10 kits on average), a ton of milk and her kits grow well but she is small compared to my other girls. I keep records of my kits growth to prove her offspring grow just as well as their cousins and explain that my eagerness to get kits likely stunted her growth.

Dood":24gum8qg said:

You won't be hurting them, per say, but they are less likely to reach their full potential.

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I question this. If you breed an animal at X age and she reaches X weight, how do you know that she hasn't reached her full potential? There is no way to corroborate this, because you can't breed and not breed the same individual and compare outcomes.

The statement itself is also internally inconsistent. Keeping it from reaching its full potential is a form of harm. But, since "full potential" is kind of an ambiguous statement, I personally would simply watch to see if it fell within parameters implying a healthy specimen and leave it at "healthy" or "unhealthy" and deal with it accordingly. It seems these bunns are healthy.

ollitos- How much do your does weigh at 16 weeks?

Dood- I will not be showing either of these two does or my buck. They came from a breeder that had over 200 rabbits so they weren't handled when they were young. They were quite skittish when I got them. They have since gotten better but one doe tends to lunge at me the first time I go in her cage if my had is on the bottom wire. If I raise my hand above her head I never have a problem. I wouldn't show them due to their skittishness and the one doe lunging. I'm afraid she would try to hurt a judge. That being said I don't see a reason to cull her as she is getting better the longer I have her. I make sure to handle them everyday when I'm home and my wife pets them everyday when I'm gone. So basically these two does will be brood does and only the best rabbits will I keep and show that were raised in my rabbitry. I fully intend to keep a doe from each mother as replacement and end up culling my original does if there temperment doesn't improve.

I question this. If you breed an animal at X age and she reaches X weight, how do you know that she hasn't reached her full potential? There is no way to corroborate this, because you can't breed and not breed the same individual and compare outcomes.

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I am using her parents, siblings and offspring to judge that she was 'stunted' due to her early pregnancy. All were bigger or grew to a larger size than her. Of course she may have only reached 9'2oz regardless of whether she had a litter of 12 at 6 months but since I cannot go back in time to test it, I theorize with the information I do have-her close relatives.

This technique is used extensively in stud selection. Males don't lactate or have litters so you judge their mothers, sisters and daughters to choose a sire who will pass on good milk production or large litter size.

Keeping it from reaching its full potential is a form of harm.

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Says who?
You are awfully quick to jump to a negative conclusion.
Animals growth is purposely stunted all the time, especially in breeding animals, to improve their fitness in the long term.

I haven't weighed any of them at 16 weeks. BUT, anecdotaly, I can share this..... Rosebud had two daughters: Popeye and Silverado. Rosebud has been such an excellent mother and I wanted more does who were such wonderful mothers and nursed so well so I kept them both to become breeders.

I started checking both of them for readiness at 16 weeks. They have both produced litters of 7-10 kits and I've not lost a single of their kits. Silverado has remained petite. She was petite to begin with. Popeye has grown and is now about the same size and weight as Rosebud who is probably 10-12 lbs. All three does have done well on a 1 day breed-back schedule although it's more like two weeks right now so the kits are bigger, stronger and have more fur before going into the growout pens.