Wide-band Chinchilla

[judymac]

Does anyone have a photo of a wide band chinchilla they could share? I am beginning to have the suspicion that my chins are wide-band, with a much lighter than normal coat. I'd love to see what a wide-band chin looks like.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Wideband confuses me. I don't really understand what I am looking for, however I believe my blue chin buck is wideband. I'll try and remember to get you a picture when the sun is up.

 

[judymac]

I'll try and remember to get you a picture when the sun is up.

Thank you! Wide band means that the center agouti band (that is fawn/yellow/orange on a normal agouti rabbit like a chestnut or cinnamon is twice as wide as normal, making them look much oranger than normal. The chinchilla gene turns off the yellow pigment factories, so the center band is pearl white instead of yellow/orange. In this case, the center band is twice as wide with pearl white, making the rabbit look much lighter than normal.

I'm not sure what other traits go along with this. Some sources say that wide-band also removes the undercolor, to check for wide band look at the upper belly area. A non-wideband rabbit should have undercolor there, but a wideband rabbit would be light. I can't prove that from my herd, and I'd love to hear from others about this.

This would explain how the wideband orange rabbits end up with their color, as the middle band is twice as wide and moves up the hairshaft to make the rabbit orange, recessive non-extension fawn 'ee' removes the dark color tips, and wideband removes the undercolor. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Thank you! Wide band means that the center agouti band (that is fawn/yellow/orange on a normal agouti rabbit like a chestnut or cinnamon is twice as wide as normal, making them look much oranger than normal. The chinchilla gene turns off the yellow pigment factories, so the center band is pearl white instead of yellow/orange. In this case, the center band is twice as wide with pearl white, making the rabbit look much lighter than normal.

I'm not sure what other traits go along with this. Some sources say that wide-band also removes the undercolor, to check for wide band look at the upper belly area. A non-wideband rabbit should have undercolor there, but a wideband rabbit would be light. I can't prove that from my herd, and I'd love to hear from others about this.

This would explain how the wideband orange rabbits end up with their color, as the middle band is twice as wide and moves up the hairshaft to make the rabbit orange, recessive non-extension fawn 'ee' removes the dark color tips, and wideband removes the undercolor. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Here are three of my rabbits,

A blue chin brother and sister, and the red daughter of the brother.

Hope that helps! If you can tell me anything about their banding that would be great, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to see really lol. I think the daughter might be steel, does she look it to you? Would that even be possible, since she would have to be ee, right?

Thanks!

 

[judymac]

I am not a wide-band expert, but I understand the basic sequence of agouti colors on the hairshaft is found in the Standard of Perfection for your breed and color. For example, a chinchilla angora is listed as "surface color is a blend of medium slate and pearl, ticked with black-tipped guard hairs. It shall have one or more intermediate bands of pearl, alternating with shades of blue-gray, with a blue-gray undercolor." So we have three distinct areas, the surface color, the intermediate (middle) band, and the undercolor, not including the black ticking on the guard hair.

Wide band is supposed to double the width of the center band, which in this case is pearl white. So, instead of dividing the hairshaft into three even sections: surface/middle/undercolor, we have the middle section pushing up into the surface section. In a fawn rabbit (called orange in other breeds), which is wide-band beside being non-extension recessive 'ee', the middle band goes clear out to the end of the surface, no dark coloring on the tip is desired (it's called 'smut'), and white undercolor is permitted (gray bands are a fault.) In color patterns without the fawn non-extension recessive, the dark tips remain.

Your red rabbit fiber has an outer red, middle red, and base white, that seems quite consistent with the wide band description.

Your chin color is interesting, I'm not sure how to interpret it, outer gray, middle light gray and white undercolor. The dark in the center is likely the outer dark tips of the next coat coming in. Can anyone shed more light on this, is this the normal chin banding

This is the other chin you sent: Looks like there is a lot of the pearl here, again with the dark tips in the center. I find this suspiciously pale in the middle. What does everyone else think?

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

I am not a wide-band expert, but I understand the basic sequence of agouti colors on the hairshaft is found in the Standard of Perfection for your breed and color. For example, a chinchilla angora is listed as "surface color is a blend of medium slate and pearl, ticked with black-tipped guard hairs. It shall have one or more intermediate bands of pearl, alternating with shades of blue-gray, with a blue-gray undercolor." So we have three distinct areas, the surface color, the intermediate (middle) band, and the undercolor, not including the black ticking on the guard hair.

Wide band is supposed to double the width of the center band, which in this case is pearl white. So, instead of dividing the hairshaft into three even sections: surface/middle/undercolor, we have the middle section pushing up into the surface section. In a fawn rabbit (called orange in other breeds), which is wide-band beside being non-extension recessive 'ee', the middle band goes clear out to the end of the surface, no dark coloring on the tip is desired (it's called 'smut'), and white undercolor is permitted (gray bands are a fault.) In color patterns without the fawn non-extension recessive, the dark tips remain.

Your red rabbit fiber has an outer red, middle red, and base white, that seems quite consistent with the wide band description.
View attachment 34880
Your chin color is interesting, I'm not sure how to interpret it, outer gray, middle light gray and white undercolor. The dark in the center is likely the outer dark tips of the next coat coming in. Can anyone shed more light on this, is this the normal chin banding
View attachment 34879
This is the other chin you sent: Looks like there is a lot of the pearl here, again with the dark tips in the center. I find this suspiciously pale in the middle. What does everyone else think?
View attachment 34881

Thank you!!!

She just had 2 kits literally yesterday so once their hair gets longer I'll post them too. One is self but one is Agouti so might help with the genetics on the wideband. Daddy has 3 more litters due over the next month too, I can update if you want?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Here are three of my rabbits,
A blue chin brother and sister, and the red daughter of the brother.
Hope that helps! If you can tell me anything about their banding that would be great, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to see really lol. I think the daughter might be steel, does she look it to you? Would that even be possible, since she would have to be ee, right?

I don't think those are blue chin aka squirrel, but rather black chin (which have a bluish surface color since visually the black hair is diluted by the interspersed pearl).

Honestly neither the first silver fur nor the fawn look like they have ring patterns to me.


The first silver/gray fur (above) looks more like steel or maybe even silvering. Where on the body was this fur photo taken? And does this rabbit have agouti markings on its ears, eyes, muzzle and belly?

Most of the colors we're talking about have a slate gray undercolor, so that's not really unusual. I suppose it could just be an exceptionally bad ring pattern, but I cannot make out rings, rather it seems more like white hairs and silver tipping on some of the dark hairs. Silvers (and Silver Fox, and Champagne d'Argents to a certain extent) have a combination of white hairs and silver-tipped hairs among the black hairs. But if you want it to look like rings, you can sometimes imagine you can see really messy ones. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a good photographic example of what their fur looks like. My Champagnes are currently far too light in their surface color to be very good examples, but here is one anyway:


Your fawn/red (below) looks pretty normal to me.

I don't see rings per se, just surface color that isn't as deep running toward the skin as might be desired, and maybe a bit of smut. There does seem to be some fading on the tips in one part of the photo (upper left) which is interesting, but you're right, I don't see how you could have steel in a non-extension color. (But you could have silvering.)

Here are a couple of reds (a senior Mini Rex and a junior Satin). These are both nicely smut-free with deep-running color, but you can see some variations in the color along the length of the hair shaft in the mini rex:

This is the other chin you sent: Looks like there is a lot of the pearl here, again with the dark tips in the center. I find this suspiciously pale in the middle. What does everyone else think?
View attachment 34881

This is the only one that really looks like a chinchilla to me. Though not ideal, the bands are reasonably distinct, with the proper slate gray undercolor followed by a pearl intermediate ring. From the ARBA chinchilla Satin SOP: "Immediately above the intermediate ring color should be a narrow black band, followed by a layer of white guard hairs, and topped with black guard hairs."

However, I'd definitely be inclined to suspect wide band here. In general, the rings should be even in width
like this:

But yours has a much wider intermediate band:

I am not a wide-band expert, but I understand the basic sequence of agouti colors on the hairshaft is found in the Standard of Perfection for your breed and color. For example, a chinchilla angora is listed as "surface color is a blend of medium slate and pearl, ticked with black-tipped guard hairs. It shall have one or more intermediate bands of pearl, alternating with shades of blue-gray, with a blue-gray undercolor." So we have three distinct areas, the surface color, the intermediate (middle) band, and the undercolor, not including the black ticking on the guard hair.

Actually agoutis can have five to nine bands of color - "one or more intermediate bands of pearl, alternating with shades of blue-gray." Most of my chins have had four to six bands (not including the ticking). And here's my friend's spectacular agouti angora with at least six bands:


This is such an interesting discussion; thank you for posting these!

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Here's a bit of a photo dump in case it helps. Same chins. I will say that dark part at the centre I think is always there, not saying it can't be new growth, but for my rabbits this is a familiar sight.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

I don't think those are blue chin aka squirrel, but rather black chin (which have a bluish surface color since visually the black hair is diluted by the interspersed pearl).

Honestly neither the first silver fur nor the fawn look like they have ring patterns to me.

View attachment 34893
The first silver/gray fur (above) looks more like steel or maybe even silvering. Where on the body was this fur photo taken? And does this rabbit have agouti markings on its ears, eyes, muzzle and belly?

Most of the colors we're talking about have a slate gray undercolor, so that's not really unusual. I suppose it could just be an exceptionally bad ring pattern, but I cannot make out rings, rather it seems more like white hairs and silver tipping on some of the dark hairs. Silvers (and Silver Fox, and Champagne d'Argents to a certain extent) have a combination of white hairs and silver-tipped hairs among the black hairs. But if you want it to look like rings, you can sometimes imagine you can see really messy ones. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a good photographic example of what their fur looks like. My Champagnes are currently far too light in their surface color to be very good examples, but here is one anyway:
View attachment 34892

Your fawn/red (below) looks pretty normal to me.
View attachment 34894
I don't see rings per se, just surface color that isn't as deep running toward the skin as might be desired, and maybe a bit of smut. There does seem to be some fading on the tips in one part of the photo (upper left) which is interesting, but you're right, I don't see how you could have steel in a non-extension color. (But you could have silvering.)

Here are a couple of reds (a senior Mini Rex and a junior Satin). These are both nicely smut-free with deep-running color, but you can see some variations in the color along the length of the hair shaft in the mini rex:
View attachment 34886View attachment 34887


This is the only one that really looks like a chinchilla to me. Though not ideal, the bands are reasonably distinct, with the proper slate gray undercolor followed by a pearl intermediate ring. From the ARBA chinchilla Satin SOP: "Immediately above the intermediate ring color should be a narrow black band, followed by a layer of white guard hairs, and topped with black guard hairs."

However, I'd definitely be inclined to suspect wide band here. In general, the rings should be even in width
like this:
View attachment 34896
But yours has a much wider intermediate band:
View attachment 34897

Actually agoutis can have five to nine bands of color - "one or more intermediate bands of pearl, alternating with shades of blue-gray." Most of my chins have had four to six bands (not including the ticking). And here's my friend's spectacular agouti angora with at least six bands:
View attachment 34890

This is such an interesting discussion; thank you for posting these!

They are chinchillas for sure, the buck produced an ermine kit and a rew with a broken orange so he HAS to have the cchd. The doe also just gave me a full litter of blue, I've never paired the buck with a dilute doe before but if he isn't blue then I would be EXTREMELY surprised. Their father was blue otter. The breeder I got their mom from specifically breeds for blue, their mother was only for sale because she was a black chin carrying dilute, and everything else in his barn was blue.

Here's photos of the full rabbits, the ring photos are from their haunches

Buck





Doe - she is nearly impossible to get photos of, especially now that she has a new litter, but if you tell me what you need to see I can try and get pics of it. She looks nearly identical to her brother though tbh.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Here's a photos of does babies. Like I said you can't see rings yet lol. But those are blue.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Oh forgot the red girl. If not steel I definitely suspect silvering. Could have come from her mom or the blue chin buck photographed above, mom was broken orange but smutty/ticking and dad is chin. I'm not good enough with si to tell you which parent could have passed it on.

The black chin in this photo is unrelated to the rest. Just brought him in for genetic diversity actually. He is NZ the others are all flemish.


If you look at the red one she gets lighter orange tips/ticking the closer you are to her tail. I can take better photos once the sun is up if you guys are interested!!!!!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Here's a photos of does babies. Like I said you can't see rings yet lol. But those are blue.

Yes, they're blue, but they're not ever going to have rings - those are self blues! (Or blue silvers or blue steels...)

I gotta look at those fur pics some more. Something is not making sense. More later...

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Yes, they're blue, but they're not ever going to have rings - those are self blues! (Or blue silvers or blue steels...)

I gotta look at those fur pics some more. Something is not making sense. More later...

That one is blue self, the one under it has pretty white lacing though I'm guessing Opal with the genetics involved but we shall see. their dad was blue self too.

 

[judymac]

dark part at the centre I think is always there,

Ah, so if this is your normal undercolor, that would make for a very large pale middle band, wouldn't it? In my angoras, I know the darker color underneath is the beginning of the next coat, when the old coat molts out, the dark color at the bottom will be left, as it is the tips of the new coat growing in. My rabbits often have three coats growing at one time, the 4-6" coat that is molting out, the 2-3" intermediate coat, and the newly emerging to 1" coat near the skin. Makes for lovely rings when you blow into the coat, but each being separate become obvious as the old fibers shed out. I don't raise fur breeds (had Champagnes for a little while decades ago, but that is a different story), so I don't know how the coat in fur breeds works.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Ah, so if this is your normal undercolor, that would make for a very large pale middle band, wouldn't it? In my angoras, I know the darker color underneath is the beginning of the next coat, when the old coat molts out, the dark color at the bottom will be left, as it is the tips of the new coat growing in. My rabbits often have three coats growing at one time, the 4-6" coat that is molting out, the 2-3" intermediate coat, and the newly emerging to 1" coat near the skin. Makes for lovely rings when you blow into the coat, but each being separate become obvious as the old fibers shed out. I don't raise fur breeds (had Champagnes for a little while decades ago, but that is a different story), so I don't know how the coat in fur breeds works.

Honestly I don't really understand it well enough to comment on what you said. Did you see Alaska satins response to my comment? I'd be interested to see what you thought about it as it speaks to the same thing you are saying about the wide band possibility.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

I don't think those are blue chin aka squirrel, but rather black chin (which have a bluish surface color since visually the black hair is diluted by the interspersed pearl).

Honestly neither the first silver fur nor the fawn look like they have ring patterns to me.

View attachment 34893
The first silver/gray fur (above) looks more like steel or maybe even silvering. Where on the body was this fur photo taken? And does this rabbit have agouti markings on its ears, eyes, muzzle and belly?

Most of the colors we're talking about have a slate gray undercolor, so that's not really unusual. I suppose it could just be an exceptionally bad ring pattern, but I cannot make out rings, rather it seems more like white hairs and silver tipping on some of the dark hairs. Silvers (and Silver Fox, and Champagne d'Argents to a certain extent) have a combination of white hairs and silver-tipped hairs among the black hairs. But if you want it to look like rings, you can sometimes imagine you can see really messy ones. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a good photographic example of what their fur looks like. My Champagnes are currently far too light in their surface color to be very good examples, but here is one anyway:
View attachment 34892

Your fawn/red (below) looks pretty normal to me.
View attachment 34894
I don't see rings per se, just surface color that isn't as deep running toward the skin as might be desired, and maybe a bit of smut. There does seem to be some fading on the tips in one part of the photo (upper left) which is interesting, but you're right, I don't see how you could have steel in a non-extension color. (But you could have silvering.)

Here are a couple of reds (a senior Mini Rex and a junior Satin). These are both nicely smut-free with deep-running color, but you can see some variations in the color along the length of the hair shaft in the mini rex:
View attachment 34886View attachment 34887


This is the only one that really looks like a chinchilla to me. Though not ideal, the bands are reasonably distinct, with the proper slate gray undercolor followed by a pearl intermediate ring. From the ARBA chinchilla Satin SOP: "Immediately above the intermediate ring color should be a narrow black band, followed by a layer of white guard hairs, and topped with black guard hairs."

However, I'd definitely be inclined to suspect wide band here. In general, the rings should be even in width
like this:
View attachment 34896
But yours has a much wider intermediate band:
View attachment 34897

Actually agoutis can have five to nine bands of color - "one or more intermediate bands of pearl, alternating with shades of blue-gray." Most of my chins have had four to six bands (not including the ticking). And here's my friend's spectacular agouti angora with at least six bands:
View attachment 34890

This is such an interesting discussion; thank you for posting these!

Here are some (hopefully better) ring photos and body photos of my buck. This is all the same rabbit within like 5 minutes of each other, I did the straight line thing because it was a lot easier to coordinate with just me then holding a rabbit, blowing in its fur, and taking a picture all at the same time lol

 

[Alaska Satin]

Here are some (hopefully better) ring photos and body photos of my buck. This is all the same rabbit within like 5 minutes of each other, I did the straight line thing because it was a lot easier to coordinate with just me then holding a rabbit, blowing in its fur, and taking a picture all at the same time lol

Much better photos... It's really helpful to take a series like that because it makes it easier to get an idea of what the color is separate from photo/screen issues.

I agree you are right about him being a blue chin. The ring color and definition is much clearer in these photos. (I find the "straight line" ring photos easier to work with, as well as a lot easier to take!) Not only are his rings blue-gray instead of black, but the ear lacing, which I find the most helpful in identifying base color, looks more blue than black.

These photos also tend to support the wide band suspicion, though they do not show quite as dramatic a difference in width between the undercolor and intermediate band as the previous ones. I am not 100% certain, but in my herd I am pretty sure that even one copy of <w> has had an effect on banding patterns. It is hard to say for sure since nobody breeds for wideband in coppers, only in reds that don't have obvious bands due to the non-extension trait.

Ah, so if this is your normal undercolor, that would make for a very large pale middle band, wouldn't it? In my angoras, I know the darker color underneath is the beginning of the next coat, when the old coat molts out, the dark color at the bottom will be left, as it is the tips of the new coat growing in. My rabbits often have three coats growing at one time, the 4-6" coat that is molting out, the 2-3" intermediate coat, and the newly emerging to 1" coat near the skin. Makes for lovely rings when you blow into the coat, but each being separate become obvious as the old fibers shed out. I don't raise fur breeds (had Champagnes for a little while decades ago, but that is a different story), so I don't know how the coat in fur breeds works.

Such a different selection process for the wool breeds! In meat, fur and show animals, the last thing you want is multiple molting events! In fact when I can get a rabbit that only molts once a year (or less), that's a keeper!

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Much better photos... It's really helpful to take a series like that because it makes it easier to get an idea of what the color is separate from photo/screen issues.

I agree you are right about him being a blue chin. The ring color and definition is much clearer in these photos. (I find the "straight line" ring photos easier to work with, as well as a lot easier to take!) Not only are his rings blue-gray instead of black, but the ear lacing, which I find the most helpful in identifying base color, looks more blue than black.

These photos also tend to support the wide band suspicion, though they do not show quite as dramatic a difference in width between the undercolor and intermediate band as the previous ones. I am not 100% certain, but in my herd I am pretty sure that even one copy of <w> has had an effect on banding patterns. It is hard to say for sure since nobody breeds for wideband in coppers, only in reds that don't have obvious bands due to the non-extension trait.


Such a different selection process for the wool breeds! In meat, fur and show animals, the last thing you want is multiple molting events! In fact when I can get a rabbit that only molts once a year (or less), that's a keeper!

@Alaska Satin @judymac

Here's a photo that shows the shafts of hair better for that red one, do we think this is silvering? The tips aren't white they're very very light beige color, but there's definitely tipping. This photo isn't quite true to color, it was taken with flash early in the morning when I did bunny chores, I could get you more pictures like this around noon but I figured it would be enough to say if that's a normal hair shaft or has something going on with it?

Sorry the hair isn't laying quite flat, she decided to have a bird bath in her water this morning lol

 

[Dimplz]

The wideband gene is obvious without looking at the rings or parting the fur at all.

The biggest indicator of wideband is the extra large eye circles and an over all lighter appearance. The wideband gene causes the intermediate band on the shaft to extend up and down the shaft. Causing the bands touching it to express as smaller.

I have included pictures of my wideband chichilla and screenshots of examples that show normal, wideband, and steel affects on agouti banding.

 

[judymac]

I have included pictures of my wideband chichilla and screenshots of examples that show normal, wideband, and steel affects on agouti banding.

This is fabulous, thank you! Could I ask the source of the diagrams of banding? It looks like a good resource. You mentioned steel, how does steel affect the bands?

I've never noticed the extra wide eye bands, is this common on widebands in general, or just on wideband chins? It's a fascinating clue.