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Would love some colour help! :D

A place to ask about rabbit colours and to discuss rabbit genetics -- and how to breed for the desired results.
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Would love some colour help! :D

Post Number:#1  Unread postby MelissaJ » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:08 pm


Hi everyone,
I'm newish to the rabbitry world and I have two Holland Lop kits I just can't identify. They're 11 days old now.

Doe is a solid cream and buck is a broken sable point.
Other kits in the litter are 2 broken sable point and 1 broken black tort.

The markings on the one on the right are so faint that you can rarely see them but also kind of look the same shade as the one on the left XD
Image

Beside a broken sable point sibling. As you can see there's no shading. But almost looks like it has otter maybe with the white lacing around the eyes, in the ear, chin etc.
Image

Here you can only sort of see the markings.
Image

But you can see right above their noses it looks like a shade point coming in.
Image

This is just a pic to see the white around the eyes etc a little better. Much easier in person obviously XD
Image

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!

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Re: Would love some colour help! :D

Post Number:#2  Unread postby SableSteel » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:33 pm


Frosties
I have shown: argente brun, Belgian hare, Britannia petite, dutch, English spot, Flemish giant, harlequin, Havana, Himalayan, Holland lop, jersey wooly, mini lop, mini rex, netherland dwarf, new Zealand, polish, standard chinchilla, tan, velveteen lop; American & coronet cavies; muffed ice pigeons, parlour tumblers, frillbacks; brahma, dutch chickens; cortunix quail
CZECH FROSTIES ARE NOT CYLINDRICAL THEY ARE JUST COMPACTS WITH A FLAT TOPLINE

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Re: Would love some colour help! :D

Post Number:#3  Unread postby MelissaJ » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:21 pm


Really??
I had no idea I could get a frosty from that pairing o.O

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Re: Would love some colour help! :D

Post Number:#4  Unread postby SableSteel » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:57 am


The cream provides the agouti gene, and the sable point provides the cchl gene (or cchd - they aren't picky in Hollands, since Hollands are naturally so dark in shading), and both provide the non extension, so you can get frosties. A beautiful color on lops
I have shown: argente brun, Belgian hare, Britannia petite, dutch, English spot, Flemish giant, harlequin, Havana, Himalayan, Holland lop, jersey wooly, mini lop, mini rex, netherland dwarf, new Zealand, polish, standard chinchilla, tan, velveteen lop; American & coronet cavies; muffed ice pigeons, parlour tumblers, frillbacks; brahma, dutch chickens; cortunix quail
CZECH FROSTIES ARE NOT CYLINDRICAL THEY ARE JUST COMPACTS WITH A FLAT TOPLINE

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Re: Would love some colour help! :D

Post Number:#5  Unread postby MelissaJ » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:20 pm


Oh wow! That's very interesting. You make genetics sound soooo easy XD
Rabbit genetics make dog genetics sound like nursery rhymes hahaha! So complicated!

Now for his white belly etc, I know frosties are supposed to have all that but what about the lacing around the eyes and ears? and the white chin/nostrils. Would that just be normal for a frosty or do you think he has otter too?

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Re: Would love some colour help! :D

Post Number:#6  Unread postby Dood » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:32 pm


Actually dog and rabbit (and cat and horse) genetics have a lot in common

A Cream rabbit is like sable, blue/dilute and recessive red dog = A_ dd ee

Dogs don't have a tyrosine dependent colour gene but cats do and a sable point rabbit would be a recessive black, Siamese (sable) and recessive red = aa cchl_ ee

Frosties are equivalent to a sable, siamese(sable) and recessive red = A_ cchl_ ee

Just like sable dogs, sable based rabbits (called "agouti") have lighter colour around their eyes and collar and belly but instead of reddish colour it is cream or white

The tan gene is the same in dogs and rabbits and is distinguished from sable/agouti by the saddle area looking solid black and with no tan colouring in the bands/ring colour of the fur. Because of this it is too early to tell if the kits are otter (called martens when associated with the Siamese sable gene )

Clear as mud :cheesysmile:

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Re: Would love some colour help! :D

Post Number:#7  Unread postby MelissaJ » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:37 am


AHAHAHA thank you???

I think I'm gonna have to try to reread that like 30 times to see if it decides to stick... any of it ;)
Like it's almost funny I kind of understand... but like it's not all coming together lol. I know it's going to take some time and you probably have sooo much more experience with it. And I find that so awesome. And I'm so glad there are people like you two to help a clueless one like me haha!

ok reread it a few times. I'm starting to understand I think my main question is why is sable an agouti gene yet they have a different class for agouti like opal/chin etc??
And from my understanding I still need to wait longer to know if otter or marten or just normal for frosty XD

thanks so much!

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Re: Would love some colour help! :D

Post Number:#8  Unread postby twr » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:30 pm


MelissaJ wrote:my main question is why is sable an agouti gene yet they have a different class for agouti like opal/chin etc??
I think Dood's post is mixing dog and rabbit terminology. Dog sable (symbol Ay on the website I found), is an allele* of the dog agouti gene. It has similar effects to the rabbit agouti allele (symbol A) of the rabbit agouti gene. For example, both help generate eye circles. This doesn't imply that rabbit sable has anything to do with the agouti pattern.

*Although "allele" is strictly correct, most people don't use the term and use "gene" for both. I feel bad whichever I use - the first is obscure and may be seen as pedantic, the second is imprecise in a way that can lead to confusion.

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Re: Would love some colour help! :D

Post Number:#9  Unread postby MelissaJ » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:32 am


Ahh, kk yeah sable to me is like a sable GSD lol.
Thanks for clearing that up! :D I'm still waiting on better fur for updated pics of the one solid frosty to see if she has otter/marten. All I know is she's gorgeous lol.

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