Why do my kits keep dying?

So I'm having an issue here.

I have two litters right now - one flemish and one champagne. Both are 6 weeks old and have just been weaned. Problem is, they keep dying and I don't know why.

The first time was from the flemish litter.. two weeks ago I went to feed them (and mom) and found one laying on its side. I thought it was sleeping and pet it.. it stayed on its side but stretched out its front and hind legs. I thought it was stretching until I realized that was all it could do. It just kept stretching it's legs out and maybe occasionally opening and shutting it's mouth. I thought that maybe it had broken it's neck, because the babies in that hutch have figured out how to climb to the top of the hutch, so I thought maybe it had fallen from the top. We quickly put it down to avoid any suffering, and went about trying to fix the issue with the climbing babies.

A few days (or maybe a week) later, I went to the same hutch and found a dead kit. We thought it was the same thing and that it had fallen, and disposed of it.. though I wasn't sure how he could have fallen when we baby proofed the hutch

Tonight I came home to check on the champagne litter and found a dead kit. I'm confused now because it couldn't have climbed, and this hutch isn't that tall. After I disposed of it, I noticed that another kit from the same litter wasn't eating with the others and seemed really lethargic. I picked him up and he didn't react much, but when I put him down he lay on his belly instead of standing, and then flailed around on his sides while kicking his legs out again.. then stood up and just stood still in the middle of the hutch. My boyfriend isn't sure he wants to put it down, because when he picked it up it was more lively.

Clearly something is going on.. this is 4 kits in under 2 weeks, and 2 kits from each litter so it's not isolated to just one (I weaned them separately because I had people wanting kits from each litter.. not that I think I'll sell them now). Has anyone seen this before? Is there a fix or are both of these litters just doomed to die? Everyone else seems to be thriving so I'm very confused.

Also. There has been no runny eyes/nose or sneezing in either litters.

Pot belly? Gassy feeling? If you hold (carefully) up to your ear, do they sound like water bottles? If gassy, baby drops for gas will help, some times it is just too late though. They can't actually pass gas on their own, lots of moving or gas drops or plant that helps reduce etc to help them out, so when their tummy bloats if nothing helps move it along then they don't make it.

Could be a number of things. Weaning enteritis comes to mind as well as cocci. Is there any runny or gel poo? Diets? Strangers around? Any predators or mice that could drop things into their food/water?

Some times, kits don't thrive but definitely sounds like there's more going on. I'm sorry your having troubles

Coccidiosis

What do you feed them, Mrr? And are there any signs of diarrhea or bloat?

The timing, six weeks old and just weaned, suggests what is loosely termed "weaning enteritis", although coccidiosis is another strong possibility.

If you lose another one, try opening it up and take a look at the liver. If it is spotted with yellowish-white nodules, it is a sign of liver coccodiosis. There is also an intestinal form of coccidiosis, but I don't know what to look for in that case.

Weaning enteritis seems to happen when the kit has problems adapting to a diet of only solid foods. Giving the kits a good amount of grass hay along with their pellets seems to help prevent it.

:good-luck:

Keep a daily log with your next litter. Note any behavior changes as well. For instance a healthy looking kit staying by itself may indicate the start of a problem. It may be easier to find the causes with a log instead of guessing what you might have done.

Would weaning enteritis occur even before they are weaned though? My first two died while they were still with the doe.

What do you feed them, Mrr? And are there any signs of diarrhea or bloat?

Click to expand...

They get grass hay daily, as well as alfalfa pellets. I'd read that baby/young rabbits and nursing does should have alfalfa? I haven't added anything into their diet, except for one day where I gave them a willow branch (I was using it for my buck with a back injury and trying to get rid of the last bit before it all withered). However.. I only gave the branch to the flemish litter, not the champagne. And I only saw deaths in the champagne litter yesterday.

No sign of diarrhea that I can tell. I checked the bum of both the dead and the lethargic kit, but they both looked clear to me. Though the hutch floor is wire so I could just be going through? I'm not sure how to tell if they are bloated other than just a really full feeling tummy?

Also.. I have someone coming today to buy two of the champagnes.. Is it safe to assume that I should tell her to hold off for now?

Mrr
I would hold off on selling anything until you get the babies stabilized. (You do not want to develop a "reputation" for selling sick animals!) Better to delay..... if this person is serious, they will understand and be willing to wait.

I second the suggestion of human baby gripe water.
Also, I have had success with curly parsley & mint.

I had a 7 week old get some fresh grass when out playing with my niece. He started acting like what you were talking about.... I pressed a sprig of mint into his mouth and he nibbled a bit, bugged him 2x a day and left a sprig of mint in his water, first day.... added a long, full sprig of parsley 2nd day and by the 4th day of offering and forcing mint/parsley he has recovered. Scary, but at that 4-8 week old age, the digestion is so delicate on the bunnies....

I would be honest with the buyer and disclose you've got a mystery illness

Can you do a necropsy on the kits to see if the organs are in normal or if there intestines and cecum look right ?

That's kind of what I thought. Don't worry, I wouldn't have sold them sick, I just wasn't sure if this was something overly contagious or not - though after reading up on Coccidiosis it sounds like it is.

In the meantime I came out this morning to find 2 dead kits.. I'm thinking I may lose the litter now as I'm down to 4 left out of 7.. Which is really depressing.

I also think that I may have found out the cause.. I asked my boyfriend about any changes that may have occurred and he mentioned that a few weeks before he weaned this litter (I don't live on the property so he does the care when I'm away) he had housed a rabbit in that hutch overnight before he culled her the next day.. She was aggressive with both us and the males and therefore we couldn't use her for breeding. He had noticed that she also happened to have some soft poop before then.. He just attributed it to stress. This is the hutch that the affected champagne litter is in now though, and I'm wondering if that could be the cause even though we cleaned it? It seems like an awful coincidence that the kits started dropping like flies only days after we moved them.

Another interesting note is that since we weaned the flemish litter into their own hutch (a week ago as they're a bit older than the champagnes) we've seen no deaths. But before then they were in a hutch beside the potentially contaminated one.

All I can think it that it must be the housing? If so, I'm ready to just burn that hutch already and cut our losses.

If I got some gripe water, how much do they need? Do I just syringe it into their mouths? I also have some wild mint growing in my property, I'll go pick some now and add it to their water. At the rate they're dropping though, will it make any difference?

MaggieJ":3t2vmh9p said:

What do you feed them, Mrr? And are there any signs of diarrhea or bloat?

The timing, six weeks old and just weaned, suggests what is loosely termed "weaning enteritis", although coccidiosis is another strong possibility.

If you lose another one, try opening it up and take a look at the liver. If it is spotted with yellowish-white nodules, it is a sign of liver coccodiosis. There is also an intestinal form of coccidiosis, but I don't know what to look for in that case.

Weaning enteritis seems to happen when the kit has problems adapting to a diet of only solid foods. Giving the kits a good amount of grass hay along with their pellets seems to help prevent it.

:good-luck:

Click to expand...

intestinal coccidiosis is "usually" the underlying cause of "weening enteritis" if it occurs between week 6 and 9 - unless there is a feed change or some other feed issue...

michaels4gardens":6ppyhjik said:

intestinal coccidiosis is "usually" the underlying cause of "weening enteritis" if it occurs between week 6 and 9 - unless there is a feed change or some other feed issue...

Click to expand...

Thanks, Michael! I wasn't fully aware of that. On natural feed, I only ever lost one weanling kit to something like that. I did occasionally see a spotty liver or two when processing, but not very often. Some of the weeds and tree branches I fed may have had medicinal qualities that minimized problems in my herd . . . or maybe I was just lucky!

It is my opinion,..
that intestinal coccidiosis is the most often overlooked cause of GI issues in most young livestock-- I have seen vets treat "scours" unsuccessfully for several years on cow, and goat dairies - never even considering coccidiosis as the root cause-- once a coccidiostat program was started- the problem all but disappeared. - I have no idea why this lapse in vet protocol exists,but it is widespread.. --
It is likely that an infected rabbit [usually with no symptoms] was introduced to the rabbitry-- once infected,- a problem like described above- is the result--

That makes sense, Michael. In the nine years I had rabbits, I only brought in a new rabbit on two occasionsnce to upgrade the herd sire and one other time when two deaths close together made it necessary to bring in a new buck.

I found this article interesting, although it did not go into as much detail as I would have preferred.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=w ... 4Q&cad=rja
I was already committed to natural feeding when I read it, but it did make me think that perhaps there were benefits to it that I had not expected.

As I have mentioned in other threads,
- I have a residual coccidiosis infection on this property I now rent. It has been the home of livestock,[ including rabbits] for over 100 years.
Before I even had any problem with my rabbits- I knew there was a Cocci problem-- because,- the man who owns this property , [and was born and raised on it]- told me-- "if you are going to "hatch biddies" be sure to plant onions and feed some chopped onion tops to them every saturday or they will all die". That was all I needed to know to be aware that the problem was coccidiosis.
Knowing a little about use of local herbs [like the article you linked to] would benefit everyone... including their livestock. <br /><br /> -- Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:01 pm -- <br /><br />

Mrr":3024e24z said:

That's kind of what I thought. Don't worry, I wouldn't have sold them sick, I just wasn't sure if this was something overly contagious or not - though after reading up on Coccidiosis it sounds like it is.

In the meantime I came out this morning to find 2 dead kits.. I'm thinking I may lose the litter now as I'm down to 4 left out of 7.. Which is really depressing.

I also think that I may have found out the cause.. I asked my boyfriend about any changes that may have occurred and he mentioned that a few weeks before he weaned this litter (I don't live on the property so he does the care when I'm away) he had housed a rabbit in that hutch overnight before he culled her the next day.. She was aggressive with both us and the males and therefore we couldn't use her for breeding. He had noticed that she also happened to have some soft poop before then.. He just attributed it to stress. This is the hutch that the affected champagne litter is in now though, and I'm wondering if that could be the cause even though we cleaned it? It seems like an awful coincidence that the kits started dropping like flies only days after we moved them.

Another interesting note is that since we weaned the flemish litter into their own hutch (a week ago as they're a bit older than the champagnes) we've seen no deaths. But before then they were in a hutch beside the potentially contaminated one.

All I can think it that it must be the housing? If so, I'm ready to just burn that hutch already and cut our losses.

If I got some gripe water, how much do they need? Do I just syringe it into their mouths? I also have some wild mint growing in my property, I'll go pick some now and add it to their water. At the rate they're dropping though, will it make any difference?

Click to expand...

allium family plants kill coccidiosis, I like to use garlic chives, but garlic tops work great,as do green onions.

Argh. Every single one died last night.

I don't know what happened, we tried gripe water, we tried mint.. Everyone looked fine last night! Clearly whatever it was hit them fast because thats the most that have ever gone in one night. My boyfriend and I are now wondering whether or not we should cull the breeders, bleach the hutches out and start fresh.. incase the adults are carrying something? We have two pregnant does so we aren't sure whether or not to wait and see how their litters go or just scrap it all and try again.

Thoughts?

A couple of thoughts . . .

Household ammonia will kill coccidiosis more effectively than bleach.

If you can isolate those two pregnant does, I would suggest keeping them, letting them kindle and see how it goes. Be ready with michaels4gardens allium remedy and give it at the first sign of a problem or even as a preventative. His ample experience with Alliums of all kinds tells me we can trust his advice on this one.

If you do decide to cull your breeders, how hard will it be to get healthy replacement stock?

I am now having this same problem....should I start a new thread, or is this ok?

I autopsied the one that died this morning(there has been one dead or nearly dead each morning for the last 4 days), and the liver was clear, but the intestines were full of dark mushy paste, and the colon had only a few tiny, hard pellets instead of the long row of smooth round droppings normally present. This kit wasn't dead when I found it, but it was cold, would scream if it was touched(even by its mother), and was doing the seizure thing the OP described. These babies are 6 weeks old and fed grass hay, clover, grass, dandelions, apple branches, willow branches, oats, wheat and peas. The oats, wheat and peas they get only in the evening and I've been finding the dead ones only in the morning. The first one I found was extremely thin....and I had noticed that the previous day.

Thanks. <br /><br /> -- Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:37 pm -- <br /><br /> I'm thinking, after doing some research...some kind of enteritis. But....I'm at a loss of how to treat! I think, for now, I'll hold off on the clover for the does with litters....since there may be fungus growing on it since the cooler damper weather has set in...

I'm not that far from you as to location and also do natural feed. As it gets later in the season, we look at the clover carefully and only feed if the color is good and the plant undamaged. We haven't lost any kits at the weaning stage or after, only in the first few days when some don't seem to get any milk.
I hope you can find and fix the problem. It is so hard to lose kits and especially when they've gotten that far and you can't figure out what's wrong.
You might get more response if you start a new thread.

i find it works easiest with kits (especially if entretis issues are present) to remove mom from the cage and leave kits in their own digs. Also to before weaning, feed garlic or onion chives to the kits.

I also believe that coccidiosis is at the root of things... knowing there are two types.. liver and intestinal. The intestinal kills... I've never seen the liver type do more than create an unthrifty animal.

Buying alfalfa blocks works for some folks as well, I find my rabbits use them as pee toys though (and that gets messy fast).

I had a lady whose kits kept dying.
The last litter was bought to me at 2 days old (with the mama) to find out was wrong.

I soon found that the doe was peeing in the nest box and the ammonia was the cause of the kits deaths.
I changed out the straw every other day and no more kits died.

Hope this helps