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What would you even call this color? *Color update*

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What would you even call this color? *Color update*

Post Number:#1  Unread postby TeaTimeBunnies » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:40 am


This is my new buck from the buyout I have mentioned before. His ears are oily because I'm treating him for ear mites since I have decided to keep him for my meat herd. I have no idea what you'd call this color pattern. I waited a bit before asking y'all in case he was that color from moulting, but he's not moulting so I have no clue what color he would be considered. I believe he is at least a Flemish Giant mix because he is the biggest rabbit I have ever owned. He fathered all the kits I have gotten (which are all from two black does) and the kits are chestnut, gold tipped steal, chin, and a REW. So what the heck would you call this color?
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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#2  Unread postby Ozarkansas » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:15 pm


Chinchilla with BAD sunburn on his fur. It may take a bit for him to actually start molting.
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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#3  Unread postby AmberRae » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:17 pm


Omg that is sunburn? Didn't even realize that much color loss from the sun was possible.

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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#4  Unread postby TeaTimeBunnies » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:27 pm


Chinchilla sunburns to orange? I didn't know that. I'm also not sure how he could have gotten such a bad sunburn since he was kept in permanent shade
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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#5  Unread postby Rosalaun » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:45 pm


What colours are the banding on the grey and brown parts (each layer from skin to tip) - looks like steel type banding but hard to tell! How long have you had him for?

Edit:
Getting late so I can't wait and see the answer, so please excuse my tired rambles! If it's definitely not a moult and this is his finished colour...
First thoughts - I'm wondering if we're looking at some sort of steel Es + harlequin/ej mix? As far as I am aware, steel is an incomplete dominant, so the 'ideal' steel is EsE, EsEs can show as near fully black etc,. I wonder if this would leave the gene open to influence from ej too. If so we would be able to get this patchy dark banding, with the black being restricted away from what we're seeing here as red. That does still leave me confused as to the apparent banding on the red though. Unfortunately google isn't giving me any answers about what happens if a rabbit receives Esej...

Do we know if the chin and REW are from him or from the doe of the pairing? If they are both from him then I wonder if he also has some chocolate to dilute the black out of the chin and give those red patches.



Second thoughts after some reading - another option is given by the 'Colour Inheritance in Small Livestock' book, which states:
'...the heretozygote Eej, which is an agouti with dark steel-agouti patches or brindling.' and '...strengthens the view that the ej allele is a mosaic of Es and e...'
The paragraph discusses harlequin as a dual-function gene which can act as steel in terms of enhancing black areas as to 'hide' agouti under the black, and eliminate black totally in other areas. This doesn't again quite explain the ticking/banding that seems to be showing on the red areas, but it might be a step towards working him out if this is his finished coat colour.

ej seems to totally remove black from some areas and over-enhance it in others when presenting as harlequin, which leaves me questioning the idea that it would 'leave' agouti on the red area and over-enhance in others, but google again isn't telling me much! However if we ignore my thought there and stick with the author, and perhaps add in a chocolate dilute (as in choc agouti), would we then get this steel-style dark areas with chocolate agouti on the red? And which would 'win' between the steel aspect of ej wanting to produce black, and the chocolate wanting to produce red? I have found the odd photo on google of what may be a chocolate silver tipped steel, with some looking obviously chocolate based, but again here no information as to the influence of ej. And if we layer chinchilla on there as well, we'd be lightening off the agouti areas to chocolate chin, whilst also presenting the black as silver-tipped...

I'll leave these thoughts here, I've no doubt after all that somebody will come along with a simple answer and totally wipe away these ideas with something far more logical, but it's definitely an interesting one for sure!

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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#6  Unread postby Ozarkansas » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:01 pm


Yes, he looks like a normal Chinchilla genetically. I can't tell exactly what happened to his fur, but I'll bet it will molt out eventually. Rosalaun, good thoughts. But Steel have dark insides of ears and Chinchilla and Agouti have white. Also I'm not sure if a Chinchilla ej is even possible. SableSteel would have the answer on that. But I am quite certain he is Chinchilla. :bunnyhop:
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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#7  Unread postby Rosalaun » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:43 pm


Really should be in bed but this is interesting xD
Good point on the ears - I must admit my genetics knowledge is based on horses not so much rabbits, so my understanding of their workings is there, but the nuances of each allele not so much. I am however very curious to see what an Esej rabbit actually looks like now, it seems there are no definite examples anywhere, only theories as to what they may present as... I do however know that chinchilla ej = magpie! But yes unless steel + ej has some really strange presentation as a false chin, the pale ears do debunk that idea.
Given the colours he's produced, he's certainly agouti-based and Cchd/c. I wonder if the does are self-steels and the reason for the steel kits - do we have any info on their lines?

Could do with encouraging an early shed so we can know if it is his true colour... :P Certainly a strange phenotype to present as though, even if it is temporary. Would be a really interesting example of sun bleaching if it is that - never seen such patterns on the coat in any animal, usually just see rusty tipping or hues all over the top/back/sides, but here it looks to have bleached through the full hair shaft as though he was laid in the same position for a week or two.

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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#8  Unread postby Ozarkansas » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:07 pm


Rosalaun wrote:Really should be in bed but this is interesting xD
Good point on the ears - I must admit my genetics knowledge is based on horses not so much rabbits, so my understanding of their workings is there, but the nuances of each allele not so much. I am however very curious to see what an Esej rabbit actually looks like now, it seems there are no definite examples anywhere, only theories as to what they may present as... I do however know that chinchilla ej = magpie! But yes unless steel + ej has some really strange presentation as a false chin, the pale ears do debunk that idea.
Given the colours he's produced, he's certainly agouti-based and Cchd/c. I wonder if the does are self-steels and the reason for the steel kits - do we have any info on their lines?

Could do with encouraging an early shed so we can know if it is his true colour... :P Certainly a strange phenotype to present as though, even if it is temporary. Would be a really interesting example of sun bleaching if it is that - never seen such patterns on the coat in any animal, usually just see rusty tipping or hues all over the top/back/sides, but here it looks to have bleached through the full hair shaft as though he was laid in the same position for a week or two.

Good to know on the Magpie! I'm still learning genetics myself.
Also, I recently purchased a Chinchilla Dutch rabbit who has one color ring missing causing him to sometimes look Steel (except for white ears and belly of course). I'm really interested to hear what one of our members, SableSteel has to say!
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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#9  Unread postby TeaTimeBunnies » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:30 pm


Well it's now getting late for me, but it was also cleaning day so I got pretty busy. I've had him about 3 weeks now, but he hasn't been losing hair like my normal moults. If I understood his previous owners correctly this is his true colors. I will get pictures of his under coat in both color patches tomorrow
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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#10  Unread postby AmberRae » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:58 pm


Is there anyway it could be urine stains and where it is not discolored is where the rabbit molted and has fresh fur? I have a chinchilla bun and when he has urine stains it is this orange color, not as extreme though.

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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#11  Unread postby TeaTimeBunnies » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:04 pm


No possibility of urine stains. In the time I've had him the pattern has stayed constant. I've been monitoring one particular, seemingly random, chin spot in the orange to look for any signs of change, and nothing has changed at all. That spot in the pattern, along with his size, actually is what earned him the name I gave him, Jupiter.
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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#12  Unread postby ipoGSD » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:12 am


I wonder if maybe he had a wound and peroxide was dumped on his fur?

Or perhaps some other liquid.. maybe bleach while cleaning a cage? I would hope people would remove their pets before using it but in todays world....... sadly u never know?

I think tho everyones right ir probably will shed out..

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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#13  Unread postby TeaTimeBunnies » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:53 pm


Here are the pictures of his fur is different color spots. From top to bottom: Chin spot below his ear, orange spot on his side, orange/chin meeting spot on his back, and finally chin spot on his butt
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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#14  Unread postby Rosalaun » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:39 pm


Ahh he does have agouti-style banding on both shades so I'd guess in this case the steel is hidden in the does rather than him!

So if we're going with the theory that this is a permanent colour (please do let us know in a few month's time - really interested to see what happens), I've only one thought left. It's possibly an odd one, very rarely reported in rabbits, but there's something called somatic mutations (or mosaic) that occurs in horses and dogs - basically in random patches odd genes are 'switched off.' So on a palomino (cream, dilution of red) horse, the dilution is slightly broken and you can get irregular chestnut (red) patches showing through. There's a very old paper here on this happening to give a back and white dutch blue patches, but I'm struggling to find anything more recent on the topic in rabbits: https://academic.oup.com/jhered/article-abstract/35/11/325/798939?redirectedFrom=PDF. Again going on the theory that this doesn't shed out, I wonder if this could be an instance of the b locus only partially presenting, making him show as a mix of choc chin and standard chin? And if that is the case, would he be capable of breeding out chocolate dilutes to the correct doe?
Here's an example of this mutation in horses: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pRbmjbVaNWE/U9qXsb6mv4I/AAAAAAAABv4/br-JaXLLs4w/s1600/tumblr_mjbhiv7jfo1s60azuo3_1280.jpg and dogs http://www.fuzzfix.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2016/07/dog-coat-40.jpg. Despite these examples it can happen on any colour, not just showing up as black - there are grey horses with sections of grey missing, a palomino-chestnut etc.

But yes definitely need an update later on with this.

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Re: What would you even call this color?

Post Number:#15  Unread postby AmberRae » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:35 pm


This is the urine staining on my chin buck. It reminds me of your rabbit. Mine is not sun burnt. He is always in shade. He just loves to pee on himself.
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