What is it about Corn and Alfalfa?

When my husband rescued Thumper, I had to do some crash learning about rabbits. It had been years (like... 25 years) since I had Duchess, and I couldn't remember much about what to do with rabbits.

Everything I found at first talked about feeding very small amounts of alfalfa hay, IF at all. Really, rabbits should have mostly timothy hay, they said.

Also, rabbits shouldn't have corn at all. Corn is toxic to domestic rabbits.

Horrified, I started picking through the bag of food I had bought at Walmart as a temporary solution so the poor bun would have something to eat while I did my learning. I picked out all the corn and the little nuggets that looked like they were made from corn.

Granted, all the sites I learned this from were the house rabbit / pet rabbit sites.

Then I found this group of rabbit keepers (over at HT) and I've seen how y'all talk about feeding corn, and feeding lots of alfalfa. I've been wanting to ask this ever since, but never got around to it.

What's the deal about corn and alfalfa? Why do the house rabbit people go spastic about not feeding these to rabbits, while everybody on here is okay with these as feed?

Is it just that people who believe that every rabbit should be a spayed/neutered house rabbit tend to be unreasonably demanding, while those who view rabbits as multi-purpose for food, beauty, and company tend to be more reasonable?

This is a genuine question... I'm not flaming or anything, just trying to reconcile the two views and understand.

the thing with alfalfa is that it's high in calcium. Too much calcium and you get sludge in the kidneys. NOT a good thing overall. Housebunny...ACK!!!! what ...have a potentially sick bunny????

Corn...some studies show that corn not so good for bunnies. I've learned MODERATE amounts of corn okay, too much, not good.

Other minds I'm sure will speak more to the subject as well.

House bunnies are usually neutered and can put on weight very easily. Alfalfa is high in protein, which adds weight if too much is fed and corn is high in carbs and fat. The house rabbit people do not believe people should be breeding their rabbits, so they take no account of the diet necessary for working rabbits.

Rabbits can handle alfalfa just fine as long as they are not getting it from multiple sources. Most commercial pellets are alfalfa based, so feeding alfalfa hay as well may be too much. I feed my rabbits alfalfa hay most of the year, but then I am not feeding pellets. I do cut back in summer and substitute some grass hay then because the rabbits are getting liberal amounts of fresh alfalfa with their greens.

Corn is probably the least desirable of grains for rabbits. I prefer to feed wheat, barley or oats. Again, if rabbits are getting pellets they are already getting a fair amount of grain in them.

IMO, some of the house rabbit people have a rather narrow and rigid view of things. They have good information on fresh foods for rabbits, but they also seem to believe that their way is the only way. Keep the salt-shaker handy when reading their information.

MaggieJ":2c3hb59h said:

IMO, some of the house rabbit people have a rather narrow and rigid view of things. They have good information on fresh foods for rabbits, but they also seem to believe that their way is the only way. Keep the salt-shaker handy when reading their information.

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IMO many people have a pretty narrow view of things- their way is the only way .. a rabbit prone to sludge needs a careful diet - my Pongo (who lived to 14 yo) was ap rime example of that - when she was about 8 she developed a sludgy bladder - I caught it early enough that simply taking alfalfa right out of her diet adn being moderate and careful about fresh foods meant she died of something completely unrelated

fat pets need different food then working bunnies .. or bunnies with a lot of freedom for that matter

You're right, Brody... and I apologize for my lack of tact.

Perhaps the reason I see little of the issues surrounding excess calcium and bladder sludge in rabbits is because one doesn't generally keep meat rabbits much past four years. Feeding pet rabbits well for their natural lifespan is a whole different challenge.

Rabbits that are to be kept for pets and may live many years need a completley different diet than meat rabbits. Alfalfa is good... it is probably the only single food that a rabbit could survive on for a long pereiod. House/pet rabbits, though do not need the (relatively) massive amounts of protein/calcium/phosphorus that actively breeding rabbits require. Even a meat rabbit eating pellets will get an over-abundance of these things if fed alfalfa hay, also, for the reasons Maggie stated.

A house/rescue/pet rabbit is not having a litter every couple of months that drains these nutrients from their systems. They should be fed pellets (or the equivalent in alfalfa and grains) to 6 months of age or so, to finance their own bone sturcture and growth. After that, it is more calcium and phosphorus than their system needs and can cause the problems as Brody and others have stated.

Corn is a good carbohydrate filler for mixed feeds. One doesn't "fatten" a rabbit in the same way one does beef/pork/and some other stock. A rabbit will usualy get plenty of carbohydrates, already, in feeds providing the other essentials. Whole corn has been shown to sometimes cause gut impaction in house rabbits. It has not been shown to cause such problems in comercial breeding rabbits. Using cracked corn can overcome this problem, but cracked corn is susecptable to a (white) fungus that is hard to notice and quite poisoness (aflo-toxin)to rabbits, if exposed to humid air for periods as short as a week. So, while it is an adequate ingredient in a pellet, there is no reason to really ever (free)feed it, unless one is broke, their rabbits starving, and its all the grain they have.

On the other hand, if your rabbit escapes and you find it in the corn crib happily munching away, there is probably no need to freak, either.

I cannot thank you all enough! Everything y'all said really helped me understand. I love this forum (and HT)! That all makes so much sense, especially that working bunnies have greater nutritional needs. Thank you for explaining about the alfalfa and corn.

I'm hoping to find some other foods I can keep easily.

Right now, being in an apartment, I can't keep much of a variety around. Thumper just polished off the last of the timothy hay we got while we were trying to figure out where the feed store was. I have a bale of coastal bermuda grass standing on end inside of a 55-gallon drum lined with a plastic bag that I close only when it is rainy or foggy outside, so it can breathe. Pearl loves it, Thumper doesn't, but I can't afford to keep buying timothy hay! Man, is that stuff expensive! I also have a bag of Country Acres pellets made by Purina... I keep that in a trash can lined with a plastic bag that stays closed all the time except when in use. I didn't keep the bag it came in, so I can't say whether it's alfalfa-based or not until I buy another bag. Can't find that info online.

All this is on the screened porch with the bunny hutch, since we obviously can't have a shed or anything. Seems to work out okay. You just can't beat a bale of coastal bermuda grass for $7 when you pay almost that for a tiny bag of timothy hay!

The kids pick dandelions as they find them, and the buns also get the occasional willow clippings, which will get more numerous as the willow grows.

Do my storage arrangements sound okay?

Your storage sounds fine...specially that you keep the hay open so it will breathe. you do NOT want hay getting wet. In your case, you're feeding hay for the roughage...so almost any of the baled hays from your are will work just fine. Do be careful of "marsh hay" since around Florida that usually has salt in it. THumper will get used to it

Dandelions are great....the leaves are just chock full of nutrients. You might find things in the produce section of the grocery that are good buys, too. I've been finding turnip greens lately...44cents for a lovely big bunch. Parsley is good, too. You don't need to feed a LOT.

Maggie grows dishpan's of things like oat grass, barley grass, wheat grass...snip it off as you need some for the buns. I've been trying, but I apparently SUCK at growing grasses

You just can't beat a bale of coastal bermuda grass for $7 when you pay almost that for a tiny bag of timothy hay!

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OUCH! I can't believe the prices you pay for hay down in the Southern States. I can get a 4'x5' round bale of second-cut alfalfa (8 or 900 lbs)for $25. Maybe I should start bagging it up and selling it to the pet people? :lol: Or, no, I guess it should be the timothy hay, shouldn't it?

Anntann":t0yogn7b said:

Your storage sounds fine...specially that you keep the hay open so it will breathe. you do NOT want hay getting wet. In your case, you're feeding hay for the roughage...so almost any of the baled hays from your are will work just fine. Do be careful of "marsh hay" since around Florida that usually has salt in it. THumper will get used to it

Dandelions are great....the leaves are just chock full of nutrients. You might find things in the produce section of the grocery that are good buys, too. I've been finding turnip greens lately...44cents for a lovely big bunch. Parsley is good, too. You don't need to feed a LOT.

Maggie grows dishpan's of things like oat grass, barley grass, wheat grass...snip it off as you need some for the buns. I've been trying, but I apparently SUCK at growing grasses

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Thank you for the reassurance, Ann! The top of the hay got a little rain the other day before I got it closed, but as soon as the rain was over I opened it back up and fluffed the top really well so the air could get to it easily. It seemed to dry right up, because the humidity had plummeted (I mean crazy low for around here).

Hadn't encountered marsh hay... or could my coastal bermuda grass be considered marsh hay depending on where it was grown?

I've been wondering if pretty much all the greens in the store were fair game. How do you keep them? Do you dry them?

Maggie seems to really be a green thumb. I wish I had room to try growing stuff like that. Or maybe I could turn my mom's room into a greenhouse while she's away... :lol:

Half Caper Farm":t0yogn7b said:

OUCH! I can't believe the prices you pay for hay down in the Southern States. I can get a 4'x5' round bale of second-cut alfalfa (8 or 900 lbs)for $25. Maybe I should start bagging it up and selling it to the pet people? :lol: Or, no, I guess it should be the timothy hay, shouldn't it?

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Yeah man, you could make some serious coin on timothy hay! Yikes! But believe me, $7 sounded like a really good deal for a tightly-packed bale that more than fills a 55-gallon drum after paying what I'd paid for timothy hay!! :x

The timothy they sell in Walmart and pet stores is always pricey....it's packed specifically for pet rabbits..small amounts. <sigh>

Even here it's over $4.00 for a tiny bag.

About the hay....you're probably all right with it. If they sell to horse people at all, or goats or others there, it's most likely just fine.

(only reason I know about the florida salt problem on some hays is that we used to run into it on the Winter Show circuit down there...horses, not rabbits )

I've considered running down with a semi load of hay on occasion. $35 for a lovely big round bale would translate into $200 in Florida. Unfortunately, it's more than that in fuel to get there now....if I was going down ANYWAY for a vacation or something....land is just so bloody expensive down in Florida that you can't justify WASTING it as a hay field

our hay from all the way up here goes to Flordia and Georgia and Lousianna packed in HUGE square bales which get rebaled in the states into more typical bales adn resold for a fortune...

Maggie - no apology needed I agree with you

All the same, Brody, I'm glad you reminded me about the different needs of pet rabbits, who in good hands can hope for a lifespan at least double that of a breeding doe or buck. Sometimes I get too caught up in my own mindset and forget how broad a topic caring for rabbits really is.

Anntann":2uol4sf8 said:

The timothy they sell in Walmart and pet stores is always pricey....it's packed specifically for pet rabbits..small amounts. <sigh>

Even here it's over $4.00 for a tiny bag.

About the hay....you're probably all right with it. If they sell to horse people at all, or goats or others there, it's most likely just fine.

(only reason I know about the florida salt problem on some hays is that we used to run into it on the Winter Show circuit down there...horses, not rabbits )

I've considered running down with a semi load of hay on occasion. $35 for a lovely big round bale would translate into $200 in Florida. Unfortunately, it's more than that in fuel to get there now....if I was going down ANYWAY for a vacation or something....land is just so bloody expensive down in Florida that you can't justify WASTING it as a hay field

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That's good to know... to be honest, I don't know where this hay came from. Other than the feed store, LOL. And she does sell to people with horses, cattle, etc. Even there, her bags of timothy hay are just as pricey as they are at Walmart or the pet store. I guess because it's the same hay produced by the same people. If someone sold bales of timothy, maybe it would be less... but I have no clue. Timothy hay sure does smell nice!

And about the land prices in Florida... well, I guess that's why we live here, but in an apartment provided by my husband's job.

You would make a serious killing on hay here if cost of transport weren't an issue.